R5: Pro OC V2 - Pro OC Cup introduction

[Xtreme Addict]

There should be PRO League and PRO Cup and then PRO Cup would have more participants - why? The reason is obvious, overclockers or teams like Team AU would do results to the Cup during their normal sessions which they made for OC/points. For instance during last session they pushed 4x 7970 with great results, for the cup they needed only to change mobo and cpu (lga2011) and they could do submission for 3DMark 11 Overall. It didn't need so much additional effort, funds and so on. I think that Dino, Uncle, Deanzo or pro will agree with me here.

 

But PRO Cup should be the most important, the most promoted by hwbot, sponsored by vendors (to gain attention of overclockers) and overclockers from XOC should also be able to take part in it. I would also limit PRO League only to 10 best submissions (or less) to "unload" overclockers and direct their powers for PRO Cup.

[Moose83]

All talking about the cup but what is with all the sponsored guys in OC league?

In top 20 there are a lot who get hardware for free:(

[Massman]

Of course I am willing to listen, that should be no surprise to anyone. There is an entire set of features and changes that were because of community input. Just to give an example, the two rev4 updates addressing world record points and few points for low competitive categories. But, you also have to understand that it's impossible to always follow everyone's opinion and sometimes we have to make a decision that is widely unpopular, but for the good of overclocking on the long-term. It's very easy to please people with only the short-term in mind, but that will not be good for overclocking.

 

To be 100% clear: I don't have the slightest doubt about my integrity regarding trying to do my best for the community and for overclocking. As much as I enjoy a good chuckle reading all the "he is a sell-out" and "a dictator", I know it's not true. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. The Pro OC Cup has been "in development" since January 2011 and has been discussed with a lot of people, including Team.AU members amongst many others, over the course of two years.

 

As for why the League has to be removed and why the Cup should be the only ranking up, I already answered in the thread in post #199. In case you don't want to read through the entire post, let me re-iterate in bullet points.

 

- Given #1: the overclocking eco-system is broken; close to zero overclockers get the chance to get decent enough hardware support to even get close to compete with the top overclockers.

- Given #2: the Pro OC League is the top league in overclocking, but generates no interest from either the participants, overclockers or spectators. Up until the removal of the league, participants didn't care about it ("who care pro oc"), didn't write about it, potential new overclockers didn't want to join it and spectators couldn't give a damn who's the current #1. It's the same sponsored people, the same hardware, the same benchmarks over and over again. Great scores, but nothing new.

 

With a broken eco-system where overclockers with potential are not inspired to take the hobby to the next level and the top league which no one cares about (*), it's clear that something has to change in order to try to repair the eco-system. The idea of a Cup or F1OC has been suggested many times by many people. In the opening post, there is more explanation on why Cup/F1OC is possibly a better solution and the whole reasoning behind it. I'm not the first nor the only person to say that. So,

 

- Given #3: a cup/F1OC style competitive overclocking is a good idea to try to improve the eco-system.

 

There are a couple of options on how to do organise this Cup. Ever since F1OC (back in 2009 I think), overclockers have been discussing how to organise this event. With or without vendor teams, live or not live, teams or no teams, concurrent stages or not, and so on. A lot of the ideas are great in theory, but fail to pass the reality tests of development feasibility ("can this be done with the available budgets"), marketing interests ("are the people with the money willing to get involved"), community follow-through ("is this encouraging new people to try to compete") or spectator interest ("is this different enough to gauge outsider interest").

 

So, in an attempt to actually try and do something about the current situation (instead of just whining about the lack of interest and "death of overclocking"), we go for the idea of the Cup.

 

The reason why we opted to replace the League with the Cup are:

 

1) HWBOT Investment: if we (HWBOT staff including Frederik, Dennis and myself) spend human resources and development time/cost on a project, we need do not have the option to do it half-half. Either we go for it 100% or we don't go for it at all. Spending time (and money) on developing a competition framework for a Cup means we will put all focus on that cup. Why would we spend time and resources on a Cup, if eventually people will just talk about how they find the League more relevant anyway?

 

2) Simplicity: the keyword to explaining an activity is simplicity. The League format is understandible for the inner circle of extreme overclocking, but quite complex for outsiders (including industry people). Having a League and a Cup combined complicates the competition format even further as now you have to explain the point algoritm (including why only global scores count, why certain benchmarks gets more points and so on) as well as the competitions (why are they there, how to compete, what's the effect). Consider your personal situation: how many have been able to explain why they are #7, #8 or #13?

 

3) Hardware Resource: one of the biggest complaints of the Pro OC League is that the resources required to compete as an individual are too high. Adding a cup into the mix, selecting different benchmarks and challenges, also adds more hardware requirements. With a League and Cup you don't only need the hardware to do all those 15 benchmarks (we know how much people already complain about the $$ necessary to compete), you also need to gear up for seasonal competitions. With just a cup, it's at most five different configurations (which can be spread over five different people).

 

4) Coding Complexity: maintaining the code for just a Cup instead of the combination of a League and a Cup is just simpler. Instead of two sets of algoritms, we only have to maintain, update and improve a single algoritm.

 

5) Teams versus individuals: in line with points three and four, there is an additional layer of complexity when creating a Cup featuring teams (to address the resource problem) and a League featuring individuals. We would have to come up with a solution to "translate" the team's performance in the Cup to the individual's performance in the league and vice versa. With just one algoritm (Cup), it's a lot easier than with two separate algoritms (League + Cup)

 

6) Double Balance Complaint: where we now have to deal with complaints of balancing the HWBoint algoritm and what parameters affect how much points a certain result gets, we would (again) increase the complexity of the League+Cup by introducing even more balancing parameters. Just the simple question of how important the weight of the Cup is in relation to the League is a difficult question to answer. After all, adding more benchmarks that can have global points will skew the system in favor of the League. In addition, we would have more discussion on what benchmarks should be in the cup, what hardware, and so on. Essentially, the discussion about the Cup added to the League/Cup weight debate added to the League benchmarks discussion.

 

7) No Beginning, No End: ... and after all that, we'd still be stuck with a system where there's never an end nor beginning, where 90% doesn't even get within 500pts of the leader and all the existing problems we have with the league.

 

8) Time management: to be competitive in a League+Cup format, you need to compete in fifteen benchmarks as well as a competition. If you're complaining that five benchmarks in three months is too much, think about how much time it would take to also check for fifteen other results. This can be fixed by adjusting weight between League and Cup, but then we're back at problem number six.

 

I can't remember all the arguments brought up, but these seven should cover most of the major problems. In the end, there's a choice to make a change that is a half-ass job or put all the weight behind it and make the jump. In this case, it's the jump.

 

As said before, this is not something that was done overnight and the League+Cup idea was genuinly taken into consideration, because it definitely has positive aspects as well! The transition would be a lot smoother or everyone getting an easy rank would be two of them. But in the end, the benefits did not outweigh the disbenefits. And, yes, that is of course a decision that has to be made. HWBOT does not run for free and every investment we make has to be accounted for.

 

The decision was made, the development has been done and the evaluation will follow. But not after seven days. Now, you guys can either continue to complain (just like what happened with F1OC) or say "what they heck" and give it your best shot (just like what Dinos22 said to everyone who didn't like the idea or concept of the F1OC, back in the day). The League was dead in every way possible, so the Cup might as well be tried out. Over time, we can always see if there can be additional parameters like a record bonus or so.

 

Dinner time.

[pro]

Hey Pieter you got the wrong idea, we totally support the idea of pro cup but just don't have time to participate,

 

Also these are certainly not personal attack and if perceived as so then sorry not what I/we meant

 

Our position and what all of us thought was happening when you said f1oc style was that cup is run contemporaneously with the league

 

yes we support pro oc cup and I hope it thrives

[uncle fester]

Cheers for that PJ,

So bottom line if I read correctly is,

too much work to run pro league and OC cup.

There's no following of pro league.

You believe that OC cup will create a following.

 

I understand these points very well.

 

Unfortunately the majority of pro overclockers do not share your view that this will create any more of following than the pro league did.

 

We do what we enjoy doing, we have lives, I run my own company that is currently booming and I am working 16 hours a day, a wife and 2 kids leaves no time for competition league, I think you will find many of the pro overclockers feel this way, OC is a hobby nothing more. It's not a career, it's what we do for enjoyment and having the ranking there to show Australia has some of the best in the world encourages the hobby for Australians. Notice we took our names down in favour to represent our country.

 

Surely a better transition and testing of your idea would have been to utilise the already working competition engine with f1oc and see how many participants you get, then look at merging the 2 together.

 

Just our view.

[sofos1990]

All talking about the cup but what is with all the sponsored guys in OC league?

In top 20 there are a lot who get hardware for free:(

 

This is offtopic for the time BUT

 

noone in the oc league is officially sponsored by a vendor or works for a vendor. Yeap, last months I got a kit of rams and a psu from Corsair and 4-5 boards from other vendors. But this is just my personal PR. I asked this hw from the vendors and they send it to me. Do the same if you can. This doesn't mean that in the next gen of cpus I will get again some boards or something else...maybe yes...maybe no.

[rbuass]

@ Massman

 

" Whether you believe that or not is up to you. The Pro OC Cup has been "in development" since January 2011 and has been discussed with a lot of people, including Team.AU members amongst many others, over the course of two years."

 

So... do you believe is the correct way, you discuss to remove the league, but do not share information with people of the league?

Nobody asked me nothing (I think I would be part), and nobody asked nothing for my friends that I know in Pro League (Slamms, Smoke, Fester, Mad, Andre, Nick, Hazzan, Nacho, Dinos, etc, etc).

But ok...

So... the question is... what about the "Limbo League"?.... if the Pro OC do not join... will go to the Limbo?

One more thing...

What do you think about XOC???.... If the guy in XOC League... sometime ... get sponsorship... will migrate after and go to the limbo together us????... or the idea is to keep people from XOC league in the XOC league for ever?.

Same way hwbot has lots of reasons... there are lots of reason that's not positive... and mainly... because it will force the Pro OCCkers to follow what benchmarks and hardwares they will bench.

I joined SF3D and Xtreme Addict Team... only to be not in the Limbo, BUT I still see non sense to remove the league.

 

I don't know... but I see no light in the end of the tunnel.

[Christian Ney]

@ rbuass: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=63570

Posted before january and public

[rbuass]

But this was not shared and asked.... this is only the final decisions.

In this thread... Hwbot told.... "We will do it".... but not... "What do you, pro league guys, think about it".

To tell "public" We will do... is not the same that "Hey Overclockers, what do you think about we ... ... ... "

I hope you understand.

[Mad222]

PJ

Good to see your prompt reply. Dinner alright?

 

My opinion:-

 

Pro OC Cup won’t give you a dime. HWbot staff must go out there to grab the business

Reality is cruel but true!!

 

What makes things look boring?

The never changing benchmarks, same old faces of the Pro League members, or the league format being run?

Yes, same as the XOC & Enthusiast…too bad, it is what it is, can’t help much, can we!

 

Why XOC members won’t join the Pro league?

No hardware sponsors, not confident enough, or actually want to stay on top of the list?

You know it, I know it, lots of XOC receive supports more than enough to compete with the Pro League.

Dun we see the same benchmarks, same faces & same format in the XOC?

 

Understood that resources are limited & HWbot might not be able to keep both the Pro League & the OC Cup. Why not combining the Pro League & XOC as one?! Would that save you some $$$?

 

One thing that the pro league or XOC members always do, which is their ability & devotion to maximize hardware performance in terms of making great scores that many users around the world would follow.

We surely dun want to see some, if not all, of those great benchers going Limbo!

 

Sorry, a little offtopic…

You know what I want to see as a HWbot fan? Some events like:-

Andre, Cookie, Shamino, Vince, etc. compete live

Fray-San, Duck-San showing off their 32m run

Many things that could make HWbot become a FUN community

why making it in a hard way !!

 

As Marc always says, just my 5 cents…lol

[Massman]

I certainly must have the wrong idea about Team.AU and its support for the Cup. Perhaps I was fooled and mislead by the tirades and phrases written down in this thread as well as some of the somewhat interesting actions outside the realms of this forum. Maybe my paranoid nature has me put question marks to statements that do not deserve such punctuation.

 

Regarding the time constraint issue, I understand your point of view to the fullest. In fact, that problem was considered and taken into the equation. One of the benefits of the League is that you can always suddenly become competitive with the right hardware and cooling, even if that's once every six months. Honestly speaking, though, I genuinly believe that the Cup format would actually be more beneficial for time-constraint individuals and, in your case, teams. Consider the following effort requirements:

 

- Pro OC League: 15 results per quarter per person => 5 results per person per month

- F1OC: 2 (well, just one as we later found otu) submissions per month per two people => 1 result per person per month

- Pro OC Cup: 5 submissions per quarter per five people => 0.333 results per person per month

(- League + Cup: 20 results per quarter per five people => 1.333 results per person per month)

 

Compared to the previous F1OC, the actual effort requirement per person (split over a team of five people) is one result per three months. This is significantly lower than the effort requirement for both the League and the F1OC. Agreed, it would require some management to have everyone do their part of the work, but in terms of the ability to be competitive the workload is actually lower. I would assume, and that's partially based on the experience I have benching together with Leeghoofd, that you can find someone in Australia that can do work pretesting hardware for example. Someone who does have a lot of time, is enthusiastic, but just doesn't have the level of skill or experience needed to put out the final top result, which someone else could help out with once every three months.

 

I've looked up the activity of the Team.AU account over time and the last time there were less than five results submitted in a quarter was Q1 2009. Ever since, you're putting out at least five results a quarter. The last time you didn't get 20 submissions per year (4x 5 stages) was 2006.

 

Also, I believe that the reward for the little amount of time spent for the Cup would be higher for time constraint teams (although that might be just my opinion). Now, the effort you put into benching just that one weekend fades away as people catch up with the results and after a while you're far off the ranking you got before. Having a permanent mark of "this is where I got in that quarterly competition" (just like at MOA or GOOC) does not fade away.

 

Of course, this is a new concept and I certainly do not have the answers to all the problems in specific regions. I'm sure some aspects of Cup are more complicated in the different regions and more easy in others. I do think that for most problems there is a practical solution, although that solution might require a new approach to the hobby and (hopefuly) a lot of new, young blood getting involved.

[der8auer]

I also wann leave some feedback here now.

 

I basicly have the same opinion like the rest even tho I have a question. I'm pretty happy with the XOC league as it fits exactly to my needs. If I want to bench old hardware - fine - new hardware - fine aswell. So that's pretty cool and the only reason why I don't want to compete in Pro-OC. I'd be pretty mad if you would remove the XOC league so I can understand how the Pro-OC guys feel.

 

I talked to crazzzy85 whom I'm benching with every time as he's living away only 20 minutes from here. So he's a big fan of the Pro-OC concept but I prefer XOC. Still we both like the new Pro-OC-Cup.

 

Actually the coolest thing for us would be to have our league rankings and to be together as a team in the Pro-OC-Cup if we have time to participate there aswell. I've read the reasons you posted PJ about why to only keep the cup. Still I just wanted to say it would be pretty awesome if you could combine the league and the Pro-OC-Cup.

 

Maybe after evaluating the first season of the cup you can think about it

[knopflerbruce]

I'll throw my 2 cents on a couple of matters as well. In terms of a "forced" move due do sponsorship it should ONLY be about the level of sponsorships. You can clean the floor at ASUS HQ, but you shouldn't be forced to go pro. I have no way to confirm that Ronaldo is only receiving a couple of PSUs here and there etc, which are worth alot less than what a bunch of others get anyway - people who are not hired by a specific company, and are allowed to stay in the XOC league. If person X gets good worth $1000 from ASUS, MSI and Gigabyte, why is that any different than getting $1000 worth of stuff from Corsair? It is not. I feel we need to raise the "pro" bar a bit here, and Ronaldo should be allowed to participate in the XOC.

 

About the TeamAU-account: if you want to join the XOC, at least split it into individual accounts first. Five guys competing against individuals... that's far from what that league is designed for.

[K404]

I have no way to confirm that Ronaldo is only receiving a couple of PSUs here and there etc, which are worth alot less than what a bunch of others get anyway - people who are not hired by a specific company, and are allowed to stay in the XOC league. If person X gets good worth $1000 from ASUS, MSI and Gigabyte, why is that any different than getting $1000 worth of stuff from Corsair? It is not. I feel we need to raise the "pro" bar a bit here, and Ronaldo should be allowed to participate in the XOC.

.

 

Should the bar be raised, or lowered?

[Bobnova]

My only requests are that there be a decently specific line drawn and that it be enforced equally. Admittedly that's my basic request for all HWBot rules, but still.

If that specific line is "gets $100k CPU trays", that's fine with me! I'm not going to be in the top20 regardless, I don't have the finances. I just want some well defined lines. Ideally that match on all the rules pages

With some (good) luck I'd have a better chance of doing well in Pro Cup than I do in XOC, and certainly better than I would have in Pro League. Five benchmarks is far easier to do and maintain than 15 IMO.

[pro]

What questionable actions outside the forum occurred?

[dinos22]

Team.AU is to the Pro OC Cup what Sacha35 was to F1OC .

 

WTF man, thanks for lumping us in the same category as that jackass who never had any intention of joining F1OC and every intention to see it through to its failure at every step of the way. This is very childish and there is nothing personal about our concerns so I do not think you need a reason to try reciprocate!

 

 

Talk about fall of F1OC, don't forget that HWBOT was also the catalyst in actually killing F1OC well and proper because you felt you deserved more reward for the work you were putting into it. That's all fair enough but at some point you decided it didn't make business sense to support something that is trying to be independent of HWBOT even though it was probably going to be beneficial to the community as a whole and HWBOT was in a prime position to benefit as it was the breathing ground for up and coming talent. There was other reasons but that was the core reason. You gave up on the idea BEFORE the season finished remember, now you are trying to stick it out with a poor idea and you will have to work really hard at it to get it to work and you don't have to. That's what the community is telling you.

 

Here is what the community is saying and I will also highlight that it's in great majority. You need to look at this and tweak your idea a bit better...

 

KEEP THE LEAGUE AND HAVE THE CUP TOO!

 

 

The reason for this is nothing more than the fact this current Pro Cup is a backward step to F1OC and while it might eventually turn into something purely due to persistence and hopefully maybe financial backing from healthier sponsorships and I hope it does for the sake of the community, I just think you are going about it the wrong way. Community priorities should take precedent to any of the sponsors or some blind idea you have you can make a miracle out of an obscure hobby. I am not saying popular opinion is always right but poor decision making also needs to allow for some flexibility.

 

We criticise you (HWBOT) because you are the voice of the community, now act like it!

 

I certainly must have the wrong idea about Team.AU and its support for the Cup. Perhaps I was fooled and mislead by the tirades and phrases written down in this thread as well as some of the somewhat interesting actions outside the realms of this forum. Maybe my paranoid nature has me put question marks to statements that do not deserve such punctuation.

 

If you have an issue with us all you have to do is contact us and have a civilised discussion, I'm not happy about you trying to make it into a personal stink fight because it isn't one at all!

Edited March 8, 2013 by dinos22

[Splave]

maybe submit your two latest pay stubs should be required

[Massman]

Talk about fall of F1OC, don't forget that HWBOT was also the catalyst in actually killing F1OC well and proper because you felt you deserved more reward for the work you were putting into it. That's all fair enough but at some point you decided it didn't make business sense to support something that is trying to be independent of HWBOT even though it was probably going to be beneficial to the community as a whole and HWBOT was in a prime position to benefit as it was the breathing ground for up and coming talent. There was other reasons but that was the core reason. You gave up on the idea BEFORE the season finished remember, now you are trying to stick it out with a poor idea and you will have to work really hard at it to get it to work and you don't have to. That's what the community is telling you.

 

Incorrect. We gave up the HWBOT submissions before the competition ended, after a miserable ending of one of the stages where no one knew a team had submit the score by email. To avoid confusion, only one submissions system had to be used - email. Personally, I continued submitting my results to F1OC.

 

HWBOT dropping the option to submit for F1OC is not the reason why F1OC failed. Lack of communication and poor transparency was.

 

Here is what the community is saying and I will also highlight that it's in great majority. You need to look at this and tweak your idea a bit better...

 

KEEP THE LEAGUE AND HAVE THE CUP TOO!

 

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5309/clipboard01ulf.jpg

 

The reason for this is nothing more than the fact this current Pro Cup is a backward step to F1OC and while it might eventually turn into something purely due to persistence and hopefully maybe financial backing from healthier sponsorships and I hope it does for the sake of the community, I just think you are going about it the wrong way. Community priorities should take precedent to any of the sponsors or some blind idea you have you can make a miracle out of an obscure hobby. I am not saying popular opinion is always right but poor decision making also needs to allow for some flexibility.

 

We criticise you (HWBOT) because you are the voice of the community, now act like it!

 

I'm very happy that you finally found 47 people that care about the Pro OC League, even though very few of the peope I see in that list previously communicated or talked about the League and a couple even said in public (and private) that they don't care about the League. As said, this is very useful information to be used in the first real evaluation of the Pro OC Cup.

 

I think Splave's meme is a very good tool to understand this chart. 47 people have accepted a system where they will forever be defeated and never come out on top. Honestly speaking, I think that's a very sad evolution as it means that people have given up on trying to be number one. If we talk about the "great olden days" with KP, Hipro, Macci at the top but where "everyone had a chance to compete" is because at least people had the ambition to be number one. People had the ambition and desire to beat the top guys. In the league, there's just acceptance. And that is the death of overclocking!

[Massman]

maybe submit your two latest pay stubs should be required

 

Well, that will leave you with a graphics card, a processor and a very great "no food"-diet

[dinos22]

HWBOT made it official and announced they will no longer support F1OC. That decision murdered the comp. XS pulling out later was just a knee jerk reaction. You and I and a 50% of others continued to support the comp because we COMMITTED to it. I don't want to commit to something that I cannot commit to properly personally nor my team so where does that leave us...You haven't planned that part out whether purposefully or accidentally i don't know. It turns out we are not the only ones either!

 

Let me quote a mate of mine after that announcement was made

 

k|ngp|n - Losing hwbot support is not the right path to go here. The bot is the glue that binds

Edited March 8, 2013 by dinos22

[Splave]

I'm totally optimistic about this. Check out the first quarter, dudes like Knopf will finally get to snag some recognition in the wprime and cinebench rounds.

[Booj]

 

I'm very happy that you finally found 47 people that care about the Pro OC League, even though very few of the peope I see in that list previously communicated or talked about the League and a couple even said in public (and private) that they don't care about the League. As said, this is very useful information to be used in the first real evaluation of the Pro OC Cup.

 

I think Splave's meme is a very good tool to understand this chart. 47 people have accepted a system where they will forever be defeated and never come out on top. Honestly speaking, I think that's a very sad evolution as it means that people have given up on trying to be number one. If we talk about the "great olden days" with KP, Hipro, Macci at the top but where "everyone had a chance to compete" is because at least people had the ambition to be number one. People had the ambition and desire to beat the top guys. In the league, there's just acceptance. And that is the death of overclocking!

 

Death of overclocking.. thats a bit melodramatic.. Why the obsession with being number one? In this hobby, is it not enough to do the best you can with limited resources, like time as well as hardware? I wont ever play golf again with my mates because I can never beat Tiger Woods..

 

I'd like to be number one, but I will never beat Andre, Vince etc.. I say, good luck to those guys.

 

It is an inherent weakness of competitive overclocking that maybe wasn't present back then. It wouldn't be any different in a cup format if the big hitters got involved.

[Mad222]

Accepted to be defected

 

How in the world did you see things that way? I never give up on getting better scores & reaching the top, so as other Pro leagues I suppose.

Great bencher like rbuass never stops beating himself in every single moment.

The one to beat is YOURSELF, man, NOT the one on the top with monster chips & best hardware. That’s the spirit of every SPORTS & OVERCLCOKING

 

Damn, I’m really disappointed to see this line of thinking, PJ

 

 

Death of Overclocking

 

The Pro league was the cause of Death of OC? We ain’t Messiah, dude

Who can change the downfall of DIY? Asus? Gigabyte? Perhaps, the good old Steve Jobs

Please dun shift off its’ blame onto Pro League guys

And stick to the subject concerned…dun shift & no dissertation please!!

 

Last words in this thread, see no points to go any further

[rbuass]

In 2005 ..... I was inspired by masters of overclocking to grow and look for skill (today... the name of this guys was Pro league).

Today, I see many friends who are enthusiasts or even extremes, which are inspired on Pro overclockers to achieve your goal....so maybe you can consider that pro guys is the inspiration to newcomers.

Remove the Pro League, is devaluing all the work done by them (I'm included).

I, like other professional overclockers in Pro league, just follow the rules of HWBOT.

Spent a lot of time and money ... devote much effort to now being in the league of Limbo.

Excuse me for sincerity, but the level of overclocking dropped down drastically in the league.

After the announcement that Hwbpt would remove the Pro league, I never spent a dime or time to send results.

The only result that I was sent was to the 3DMark Fire Strike, which does not earn points, but belong to a nice competition.

Compare yourself, the scores and records before the announcement....where they were always beaten and always posted great scores..., and the results now.

The fights we had with switching positions before .... no longer exist.

This was worth nothing.

I really don't want to be forced to bench X, Y, or Z.... or to use hardware XXX or YYY... I want to try to climb in the ranking... with the weapons I have... and according what I want.

Massman... I know it can be hard for you, to recognize you must be wrong... but man... you are.

There are important guys talking.... not only limbo guys like MAD, Dinos, Fester, Andre and me... but people like derb8auer and Knoplerbruce that you know... work for best league and best community.

I think hwbot still have time to change the new Rev,5

 

Tks

Edited March 8, 2013 by rbuass