HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[bazx]

We've had the donation button up for so long now ... what we have incoming is appreciated, but it doesn't even come close to covering even the server costs. It seems that a situation of mass-hysteria has been created (i also sense some team moderators are making their team go nuts) and this for no apparent reason.

 

As said, I'm not going to ask the community for money. You can all use this service, but you're not paying for it. Manufacturers are using YOUR results (no matter where you post them, by the way) for marketing and research, ergo they should be the ones paying for the development. Very simple.

 

manufactures should not have any say in how hwbot is run they cannot be trusted to make the best decisions for the benchers here

 

if you take money from them they will expect there pound of flesh

 

donation buttons are fine but not reliable

 

that leaves subscriptions as the only viable method of funding hwbot

 

you could even set it up so that subscription was not needed until the user had 50 points

[Massman]

if you go with manufactures you will be bent over and told to touch your toes

 

If it's a fact that manufacturer support equals certain bending over, does this mean that BenchTec UK is bending over for:

 

 

 

If yes, I have to rethink the value of the reviews. If not, you will have to rethink some of your principles/.

[Don_Dan]

Brian, you're just not thinking hard enough. Televised caged deathmatches OCA members vs XS members (Splave gets to take on two), and hwbot's financial woes will be a thing of the past.

 

Sounds great!

Coming up next: Bill against PURE, should be equally entertaining, don't you agree?

[zoro]

the economics of the server/site should not be the concern of the OC community, leave it to administrators.

Let them decide the best way to keep alive all this hard effort! Donate if you want of course

We have to concentrate to the best and easiest way to submit our results and get our points, meaning to have fun

[Kal-EL]

Brian, you're just not thinking hard enough. Televised caged deathmatches OCA members vs XS members (Splave gets to take on two), and hwbot's financial woes will be a thing of the past.

 

Things can get frisky sometimes and under the current Overclocking Community climate with people being less than scrupulous, the tension of impending change, bundled with the natural competitiveness of an overclocker, sometimes things get said, go too far or get misunderstood.

 

I firmly believe for the most part, if we all try really really hard to treat each other with respect, dignity, understanding, acceptance and honor, then we can all get along and have a better community for it.

 

I don't agree with some of the things chew or others say or do but I do try my best to disagree while getting along. In private I curse their names repeatedly

 

While a cage match would be really funny to watch with limbs being torn off and thrown into the crowd like t-shirts, and it would appear that theres an bitter OCA vs XS theme going, we not interested in the drama and would much rather get along with the 4 active overclockers at Team XS.

 

Group Hug?

 

I predict chew will stuff his foot in his mouth with ficticious screenshots and failed attempts at making Team OCA appear to be cheaters and then go back and ninja edit his posts so he doesnt look so stupid at which point I'll go back in time and ninja edit my posts to show him that two can play that game.

Edited September 22, 2010 by HawaiiSuperman

[euklidis]

the funny part is that manufacturers advertise their products through our work and money. We pay them, we bench and break records and they get free advertisement. Now they want to interfere on the site. the point is that hwbot hasn't understand that this is the place for their ads and that they should be licking our butts...

[1Day]

There are three things that need to be kept in mind when thinking about the BOT and this proposed revision to the bot.

 

Cheating

Cost of HWBOT upkeep

Future of benching

 

 

Fist one is the most ugly and the one which has an effect on all of us. Cheating, there are many different kinds of cheating that goes on in the benching world. The kind that is the easiest to pick up is when an individual posts a result that is bogus, either because of some illegal tweak, illegal action or tool, or because of a perceived talent with photoshop. Then we have the kind that is not so easy to pick-up a legitimate result that was not done by the person submitting the result. Yes we had a extreme case of this in our community a few months ago and that does happen, but what I am talking about is when some people from a team all submit results that were completed with hardware that is not their own. Here is an example. A group of benchers from the same team get together and do some benching. One of them has a great graphics card and it really kicks butt. Coupled with a good CPU (not even a great one is needed) you will end up with some top 50 or even top 20 results. And of course the end of the session there are many many results which are better than the personal bests of those people present. See where I am going here? Now what does happen far to often is that over the next few weeks all the people and even those who were not at the bench session will submit results done with that hardware. The result you have 8 or 9 people from the same team present submissions to HWBOT as there own, those results push their team up the leader board. Those results are hard to detect as bogus and harder to prove. I mean so you are asked for a photo of the hardware, big deal you might even own a graphic card that is the same as the one used in the benching session it just happens to clock like a dog. So basically there is no way to prove unless people are stupid how they submit the results. And that is how many are caught out. But the point is this, the team competition as it is now is the single major cause for that kind of cheating. The folks who spend hours and hours grinding out results for 0.1 boints with hardware than can remember when Noah led the animals two by two are not the problem, it is the top components that bring the big points for a team.

 

So a solution is to limit the team league to the best results is proposed. Many who have posted here do not like it, fair enough, I am sure you do not support cheating as I have described above so what do you propose as an alternative?

 

 

The second thing is day to day running costs. I think the forum admins need to post publically what the costs actually are to run the HWBOT in its intirety. I belong to a really huge forum (not a benching forum) and the ownder has published the books and sets a monthly target for us the members to reach that will cover the costs. No that might seem a paradox:D but it works. We the users of HWBOT do not understand just how much it costs. Show us. Tell us. So we can buy into the vision of what HWBOT can be and most probably needs to be.

 

The last thing to keep in mind when replying to this thread and the new rev - is what is the future of benching. I like so many who participate love benching. I am not rich at all. I benched as a single mother of two small kids and still have to make do with second hand or used kit that I buy on ebay or on the classified sections of AVforum here in the UK. I can not afford to buy top end kit when it is new. Simple as that. Benching has always been a sport that the rich or the sponsored favor. That has always been. I do not like it, only because I am not sponsored. If I was sponsored then I would not mind I think. But the whole sponsor thing is moving on and evolving. There needs to be a similar evolution at HWBOT. It is impossible for Joe or Jane average to compete with a vendor sponsored bencher. Graphic cards that are binned for you, VGA bios's that are unique and let us not forget those special motherboard bios that are not available to all. I could be wrong here but that is not a level playing field. There are already economic (fiscal) limitations on most bencher's and I believe that there does need to be a separation of the benching leagues if the sport is to grow stronger. More and more people are benching and have joined HWBOT. Most will never get to top 20 status and that is fine. I am one of those. But when I see the top 20 section filled with people who have had special kit given them to promote a vendor I do get angry. Now before anyone says that there are retail kit in the top 20 I know there is. I am speaking in general terms. I love this sport I want it to grow strong and keep getting better. I think we need a league system like in football. So I ask think about where you want this sport of benching to be in two years, in five before you write a rant about how bad the rev is. Offer solutions or alternitive ideas we need them badly.

 

Thanks for reading. Both of you. :D

[bazx]

If it's a fact that manufacturer support equals certain bending over, does this mean that BenchTec UK is bending over for:

 

 

 

If yes, I have to rethink the value of the reviews. If not, you will have to rethink some of your principles/.

 

Our team is set up as a democracy any team member that gets stuff sent to them

Can Put there logo on the front page and publishes their own reviews, i have no input into any arrangements that team members have with any manufacture

 

And that’s all they get from us

 

i personally have no sponsorship from any company and would not want it

 

benchtec is self funding and has no moneys coming into it from outside so is independent to make its own decision on its path

 

There was a time when i thought it was cool to be sent parts but have moved on from that mind set

 

And now realise that it was a mistake

 

i am now much happier without all the crap that comes with manufacturing support and i truly believe Hwbot would also benefit from a break form sponsors

 

With a move to subscription you would be masters of your own destiny

 

 

edit: after some thought there is one company that has supported benchtec from the start and has asked for nothing in return, Intel UK

Edited September 20, 2010 by bazx

[Predator]

 

I firmly believe for the most part, if we all try really really hard to treat each other with respect, dignity, understanding, acceptance and honor, then we can all get along and have a better community for it.

 

 

this^^

 

very well said man

[SF3D]

With a move to subscription you would be masters of your own destiny

 

Would you really like to pay for the use of this site? If that is the case, we should consider that as a one option.

 

The idea have been opposite from the beginning. Users should not be the ones who pay the costs of running this site. And there is 26 000 + users and maybe 1000 would pay and rest would not. People like it, when you get it free. No matter what it is..

 

So..there is a problem but it might not be easy to solve without manufacturers as a sponsors.

[K404]

Well...... HWB is for our benefit.

 

I like having my bins emptied each fortnight and having street lights that work.... its for my benefit and I have to pay.

 

$10 a year? Every 2 years? The people who care will pay it. HWB should get..... maybe $10K into the bank which must at least *help*

 

It might also make the workload that bit lighter The people who want it all for free would stop coming

 

BUT.... if we pay, we would have some expectations of quality of service, problem resolution etc. Im not saying those things aren't done now- they ARE done, but human nature means if we're paying for something, the tolerance for delay goes down.

 

It would also (probably) mean that we would expect polls on big decisions and as a democracy, we'd expect the majority to have their way

 

 

 

 

 

We pay about the same for 3DMark licenses and TBH... what we get for the money aint great- slow fixes to problems, dodgy ORB servers and not much in the way of protection from cheating. Paying the same for HWB should be much better value for money.

Edited September 20, 2010 by K404

[bazx]

Would you really like to pay for the use of this site? If that is the case, we should consider that as a one option.

 

The idea have been opposite from the beginning. Users should not be the ones who pay the costs of running this site. And there is 26 000 + users and maybe 1000 would pay and rest would not. People like it, when you get it free. No matter what it is..

 

So..there is a problem but it might not be easy to solve without manufacturers as a sponsors.

 

i would be very happy to pay a subscription for what this site offers us as benchers

 

in life i cannot think of any service that i use that is free

[OptyTrooper]

Well...... HWB is for our benefit.

 

I like having my bins emptied each fortnight and having street lights that work.... its for my benefit and I have to pay.

 

$10 a year? Every 2 years? The people who care will pay it. HWB should get..... maybe $10K into the bank which must at least *help*

 

It might also make the workload that bit lighter The people who want it all for free would stop coming

 

BUT.... if we pay, we would have some expectations of quality of service, problem resolution etc. Im not saying those things aren't done now- they ARE done, but human nature means if we're paying for something, the tolerance for delay goes down.

 

It would also (probably) mean that we would expect polls on big decisions and as a democracy, we'd expect the majority to have their way

 

 

 

 

 

We pay about the same for 3DMark licenses and TBH... what we get for the money aint great- slow fixes to problems, dodgy ORB servers and not much in the way of protection from cheating. Paying the same for HWB should be much better value for money.

 

This. If it keeps the manufacturers from turning this site into one big commercial I'll gladly lay down my $.

Edited September 20, 2010 by OptyTrooper

[Viss]

Another vote for paid subscription.

[Massman]

Who says HWBOT would look completely different without manufacturers backing us up?

 

As I said before: none of the manufacturers have designed or pushed any of the features in rev4. They only got involved when for the split-up between XOL and UFL because it directly involves them. Apart from that ... nothing.

[dejo1]

another possible scare for the bot is that if it was indeed member supported totally, and there was a proposed rev change that the majority of these paying members didnt like, and these members decided to pull their funding= the same end result as it being the manufacturers pulling their support. Sadly, the bot is in a situation where it could be held hostage eithere way. I would think that the user hostage is far better than a manufacturer hostage situation every time.

 

I think the whole rev change is there to separate the pros from the joes. If thats the case separate them and leave the points system the same. The corporates can have what they want, their own playground without rules. and the joes dont have to attempt to compete against them. The last rev change was a nightmare at first and not many seemed to like it, and seem willing to mame and pillage others to keep it now. I am not for the change, as I would like to see new blood to our little world of wonders, but if newbs cant make the cut to score points they wont stick around or even be interested in it as a "fun" hobby.

 

I have no chance of making it to any level of competence within the big picture here, but would much rather be a nobody in a world of somebodies than to be a nobody (even if I were ranked #1 in the joe league) in a nobody league. So I would be thrilled to leave it as it stands.

[OptyTrooper]

Who says HWBOT would look completely different without manufacturers backing us up?

 

As I said before: none of the manufacturers have designed or pushed any of the features in rev4. They only got involved when for the split-up between XOL and UFL because it directly involves them. Apart from that ... nothing.

 

 

Then let the "pros" (again I use the term loosely and with a bit of sarcasm as there are a LOT of benchers here that with access to the same equipment/sponsors would make those pros look like bums) play in their own league and leave us little guys alone. Rev. 3 hurt a lot of small guys and gals (though I think I actually gained points) and I'm afraid rev. 4 will be the final thrust of the dagger if you catch my drift. IF an "amateur" is able to pull himself up by his or her bootstraps and catch the attention of the corporate sponsors then great. If not @ least let him play in a field where his efforts count for something.

[Predator]

the problem with splitting pros and rest is how many users are really full sponsored atm?

 

i can only think of Hicookie

[OptyTrooper]

the problem with splitting pros and rest is how many users are really full sponsored atm?

 

i can only think of Hicookie

I suppose so.

[SF3D]

Valid points Kenny and bazx.

 

This. If it keeps the manufacturers from turning this site into one big commercial I'll gladly lay down my $.

 

I need to reply to this.

 

Rev4 is end product of our constand development. I feel bad to watch when some people think that Pieter is just greedy and alone behind all these changes. It is not like that at all.

 

Manufacturers should take part in to funding this site, cause they use this site for their marketing anyway. If we let them do that without any fee, we would be just bunch of fools.

 

I am tightly connected to HWbot and I have large part on this new revision. The UFL is made to make community happy. I personally have been feeling a bit bad sometimes, when you push your hardware to limit, someone hit it down with some comment about ES samples etc. It is not any less valuable result, if it is done with some non retail parts, but of course it will annoy some users.

 

So, there is a solution for this and it is UFL. There all manufacturer puppets can figth between each other and they does not mess the XOL league at all. That way normal users does not have to directly compete with Hicookie or Nickshih, but they can compete in their own league. In every league the level of support and hardware should be quite equal.

 

We can never find 100% balance in to these, but we need to have some faith.

 

All these changes are end results of very long conversations and development. These all are made to change this hobby in to right direction and I really think this is the step, which is needed.

 

Please, no more personal attacks to Massman, cause he is indeed working for this site, but he is not behind all "evil" If you guys can do correct critisism and ideas, we can take them in to account. If this conversations turns to be BS all the time, no ideas can be takend from it.

 

So, think before you post and try to see larger picture!

 

Thanks!

[K404]

I think most of the complaint is against the......"streamlining" of team points in the hardware categories. It wont solve the problem, not as long as there are personal totals involved.

 

Iv always liked the idea of a Pro league. Vince, Hicookie, Nick, Dinos? Eva? Smoke? Sacha? You, Petri? Massman? Elmor, DrWeez, Fox, Stummi, George, Thomas.......The pool is small ish at the moment- it will increase in number

Edited September 20, 2010 by K404

[drnip]

Too many people jumping to too many conclusions if you ask me.

[euklidis]

The problem with the "only top 5 give points to the team" destroys the meaning of team. it's top 5-6 of each team and all the others are alone no matter if they sign in a team. i agree in rev 4 in general but i strongly disagree with that rule.

[der8auer]

User ranking:

 

- MAIN RANKINGS

-- UFL: pro's and super-seeded freelance

-- XOL: ~ current oc league without above

-- EL: ambient cooling people

 

- SIDE RANKINGS

-- Competition ranking: points of comps, also affect XOL in small way

-- hardware masters: as now

-- achievement ranking: if we iron out bugs

 

Team ranking:

 

- MAIN RANKING

-- Teams league: best submission of user in team is of value

 

- SIDE RANKING

-- Team 'hardware masters'? ~ hw masters, but for teams

 

Looks okay to mee "Team Hardware Masters" Ranking is a good solution to "compensate" the new rule to let only the best submission count!

 

 

Maybe many of you don't realize how much stress the hardware sharing is putting on the staff. Most of the time, we have rumours and accusations, but no solid proof. Since the scores are not removed, people accuse us of covering up all the time, but in fact we're just trying not to make things too dictatorial in terms of moderating. Without decent proof, there's nothing we can do if we want to give a legit reason. This issue gives us a lot of troubles, because we want to make the competition as enjoyable as possible and instead of that it's just causing more troubles.

 

So, maybe for you the price is too big, but for us it might be justifiable.

 

That being said ... it's not a good idea either to 'hurt' the smalltime overclockers (those who just bench something they already have) either. It's not really hurting anyone if you're agreeing who will be doing what within the team, but might not be cool for people who just started overclocking.

 

Okay so i can somehow understand that step It's kinda sad that there are so much cheaters making this necessary...

[TheKarmakazi]

Where does this quest for levelling the field end? First it was money (multiple GPU setups less attractive). Now its the size of the teams that come into play. Whats next? Put a max on the time each member can spend to produce results?

 

^ This. The playing field will never be level and 100% fair. Thats the way of the world. Any attempt to completely equalize everyone is a idealist fantasy. If you dont have the $$$ to compete at the top, you can grind older hardware.

 

If this team points rule goes through as is, I will continue to bench and grind. I just will not be posting anything in here about it... In fact, I would lose interest in logging in at all. Your hearts are in the right place in terms of attempting to stop cheating, but your heads are up your asses.

 

+1 if this revision goes through with only "best" submission per category per team, I will continue benching but you wont find me on hwbot anymore.

 

Not to sure you would want that to happen

 

I know the guys at OCA very well. Even though you later post that your comment was not aimed at them, it clearly was. Otherwise why would they not "want that to happen." They spend tons of hard earned dough on this hobby and dont deserve crap from some troll like you. I really admired the ethical path you took regarding samples and not competing with them, but I just lost my respect for you from this and your subsequent posts.

 

Bill, for the love of all things overclocking please stop hyping up whatever dirt you have and just spill it. First you claim you were waiting on hosting. Did you know Blogger and Wordpress offer free hosting? I just spent 30 seconds registering http://benchzowner.blogspot.com/ for you and another 10 minutes populating it with creative content I feel is similar to what you'll be posting. Feel free to contact me for the login credentials.

 

This is hilarious, thanx for giving this depressing discussion a little brevity.

 

Can you add an extra feature that allows us to download all our screen shots and images to make the transition to a new benching site easier?

 

If their was another benching site, maybe hwbot would take the opinion of the community more seriously...

 

Would you really like to pay for the use of this site? If that is the case, we should consider that as a one option.

 

The idea have been opposite from the beginning. Users should not be the ones who pay the costs of running this site. And there is 26 000 + users and maybe 1000 would pay and rest would not. People like it, when you get it free. No matter what it is..

 

So..there is a problem but it might not be easy to solve without manufacturers as a sponsors.

 

I have supported this site with 10 euros per year since I joined. I have no problems paying for a service I use regularly which bring me fun and competition. And Im sure many more people feel the same.

Edited September 20, 2010 by TheKarmakazi