knopflerbruce Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 So, any new arguments? I don't see a reason to revivie this thread if it's just going to be the first 9 pages al over again. Massman explained why the rules are the way they are, and although I don't agree 100% the thought is good. If you have the resources to run and bin 4 GPUs + 1 CPU - neither of them cheap at all - then why don't you go subzero as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebanik Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) If you have the resources to run and bin 4 GPUs + 1 CPU - neither of them cheap at all - then why don't you go subzero as well?  Because he has already explained it, he likes the sensation  Edited May 18, 2012 by thebanik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Â I know how to troll fella... Â Just be serious here... Â Thankyou for proving my point....Impressive work you have done by the way. ROFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Because he has already explained it, he likes the sensation http://hwbot.org/submission/2272128_  http://hwbot.org/submission/2282013_faster_3dmark11___performance_2x_radeon_hd_7970_22376_marks  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB_SC Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) So, any new arguments? I don't see a reason to revivie this thread if it's just going to be the first 9 pages al over again. Massman explained why the rules are the way they are, and although I don't agree 100% the thought is good. If you have the resources to run and bin 4 GPUs + 1 CPU - neither of them cheap at all - then why don't you go subzero as well? Â We, enthusiasts, give to you, Xtreme OCers and Pro, many and many benchmarks just to "add" your easy global or hardware points... Â We, enthusiasts, keep this all rank alive, benching with poor chips (i can't bin for 6Ghz), poor temperatures cuz we just don't need, want or can't use sub-zero... I don't want to pay for liters and liters of LN2 ou KG of Dice just to take Top 10 positions... I can do it with Water... (LOL) Â C'mon guys, why Pro League uses all cooling type? Everybody there could use only Air cooling... Imagine that discussion here... Â When someone asked to change WR, if he didn't have top 10pts, he can't argue with the "Xtremes", but when someone have top 10 pts, everybody say to him: Oh man, you're so good, c'mon, join us on Xtreme, you have 4 VGAs, now use LN2 on them... Â Damn guys... That's horrible... Â If the enthusiast league give all hwbot the volume to give an "up" in your points, we deserve WR points too... (or separate enthusiast points) Edited May 18, 2012 by TJB_SC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 We, enthusiasts, give to you, Xtreme OCers and Pro, many and many benchmarks just to "add" your easy global or hardware points... We, enthusiasts, keep this all rank alive, benching with poor chips (i can't bin for 6Ghz), poor temperatures cuz we just don't need, want or can't use sub-zero... I don't want to pay for liters and liters of LN2 ou KG of Dice just to take Top 10 positions... I can do it with Water... (LOL)  C'mon guys, why Pro League uses all cooling type? Everybody there could use Air cooling... Imagine that discussion here...  When someone asked to change WR, if he didn't have top 10pts, he can't argue with the "Xtremes", but when someone have top 10 pts, everybody say to him: Oh man, you're so good, c'mon, join us on Xtreme, you have 4 VGAs, now use LN2 on them...  Damn guys... That's horrible...  If the enthusiast league give all hwbot the volume to give an "up" in your points, we deserve WR points too... (or separate enthusiast points) Agreed +1 (or separate enthusiast points) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB_SC Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Nobody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjc Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 It has been well established before that nobody is bothered either way and massman made a logical reasoning as to it not happening and why. Â You don't need to agree with it, but I think it's time you started to just deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The easiest would be if people cared enough to knock air/water scores out of the WR point discussion for good:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The easiest would be if people cared enough to knock air/water scores out of the WR point discussion for good:D Â Â Y'know what..... been wanting to say that for a while, couldn't think of a good way to word it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXSebaSXx Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 My 0.02... Â The Enthusiast League.The best overclockers who do not use extreme cooling. Using only air and water, this is the entry league for new overclockers, or those who enjoy a stable 24/7 system. Â Notice how it DOESN'T mention anything about what kind of HW, or what amount of money is to be used. Hell; I know at least a handful of guys that submit for the Enthusiast League that, if they had any desire to go extreme, could outspend some of the Pros and the only reason they stay in Enthusiast is because they don't feel the need/desire to freeze their $10K gaming rigs... Â The part that I don't agree with on this whole thread is the assumption/presumption that Enthusiast League equals cheap HW and that the members of this league should be protected from big spenders. Why? No other league gets any protection from people with big pockets or corporate backing... I see no reason why the Enthusiast league should be different. If you have the funds/HW/skill to beat a Pro's LN2 score with air/h20; I say you should be allowed to reap the benefits. It's not a matter of saying "Oh; you're too good for Enthusiast, move to OC or Extreme". What league you're on is not dictated by what HW you run or what scores you can get; it is dictated by two factors: Cooling (OC - Extreme) and/or Corporate backing/sponsorship (Pro)... There is nothing that says that because someone can afford $5K worth of GPUs they should move out of Enthusiast. Â I did like that Rugby/Soccer analogy that Massman made, but I think it was wrong... The case here is not that Faster wants FIFA to change the rules so he can run around holding the ball in his hand... The problem is that he scored an olympic goal (corner kick straight to goal without anyone else touching it) and FIFA has decided his goal doesn't count because he doesn't play for FCB or Real Madrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 We could always merge the two leagues. Since cooling method doesn't really mean THAT much when it comes to scores produced (based on a few recent scores that is really the only conclusion), then why separate by cooling at all? If you can get WR points by using ambient cooled gear, there is no real need to have an enthusiast league at all... IMO. We used to think LN2 and air were like night and day, but we were proven wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 My 0.02...   Notice how it DOESN'T mention anything about what kind of HW, or what amount of money is to be used. Hell; I know at least a handful of guys that submit for the Enthusiast League that, if they had any desire to go extreme, could outspend some of the Pros and the only reason they stay in Enthusiast is because they don't feel the need/desire to freeze their $10K gaming rigs...  The part that I don't agree with on this whole thread is the assumption/presumption that Enthusiast League equals cheap HW and that the members of this league should be protected from big spenders. Why? No other league gets any protection from people with big pockets or corporate backing... I see no reason why the Enthusiast league should be different. If you have the funds/HW/skill to beat a Pro's LN2 score with air/h20; I say you should be allowed to reap the benefits. It's not a matter of saying "Oh; you're too good for Enthusiast, move to OC or Extreme". What league you're on is not dictated by what HW you run or what scores you can get; it is dictated by two factors: Cooling (OC - Extreme) and/or Corporate backing/sponsorship (Pro)... There is nothing that says that because someone can afford $5K worth of GPUs they should move out of Enthusiast.  I did like that Rugby/Soccer analogy that Massman made, but I think it was wrong... The case here is not that Faster wants FIFA to change the rules so he can run around holding the ball in his hand... The problem is that he scored an olympic goal (corner kick straight to goal without anyone else touching it) and FIFA has decided his goal doesn't count because he doesn't play for FCB or Real Madrid.  It also says the enthusiast league is "the entry league for new overclockers". Being experienced enough to get WR points in this league, you're no longer a rookie and should move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXSebaSXx Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 We could always merge the two leagues. Since cooling method doesn't really mean THAT much when it comes to scores produced (based on a few recent scores that is really the only conclusion), then why separate by cooling at all? If you can get WR points by using ambient cooled gear, there is no real need to have an enthusiast league at all... IMO. We used to think LN2 and air were like night and day, but we were proven wrong. Â I agree... IMO; the leagues should be Non-Pro and Pro... No distinction on cooling, only whether one gets sponsored HW or not. Â It also says the enthusiast league is "the entry league for new overclockers". Being experienced enough to get WR points in this league, you're no longer a rookie and should move on. Â The flaw in this argument is that, with how the leagues are set up now, HWBot is "punishing" people with skill/experience simply because they chose not to freeze HW. It's the whole "your goal doesn't count" because you play for Botafogo instead of AC Milan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 PS not everyone in pro league is given everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXSebaSXx Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) PS not everyone in pro league is given everything  I know that... It's not that being Pro means "you get everything for free"... I know there are the rare few where that is the reality; and I also know that there are people in the Pro league that are there because they want the challenge; even if they still buy all their own HW... And there are also those that are put in the Pro league because they get a review sample a few times a year... Trust me; I'm not knocking on the Pro guys; I'd love to be there myself... My argument is that cooling should not be a factor in deciding leagues because it leaves people like Faster in this predicament and it gives way to threads like the one we're writing to right now. If the bot were split into Pro (You either have corporate backing or you ask to be put on it and show that you can hang with the big boys) and Non-Pro (You don't get any kind of corporate backing ~no review HW, no sponsored HW, no ES HW, no binned HW~  The way I look at it... The difference between the Enthusiast-OC-Extreme leagues as it refers to points is that Enthusiast doesn't get WR points; the rest of the points are counted the same and compete against each other. Right? So when I run DICE and make some submissions; I'm still competing against Extreme guys and Enthusiast guys for HW and Global points all the same. Right? And if I somehow get lucky and manage to snatch some WR points; I do get to keep them because I'm in the OC League; whereas, the guy in Enthusiast doesn't... That's what bothers me... If we can compete for HW/Globals against them; why would they not be allowed to compete for WR against the rest of us?  Why not just make it one big league and everyone competes with everyone? Edited May 18, 2012 by xXSebaSXx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted May 19, 2012 Author Share Posted May 19, 2012 I'm really enjoying all the arguments, now we have a healthy discussion  I'll try to give an example of what happens in my case:  I scored P30654 in 3DMark11, I was in 6th place overall, I gained 21.7 global points, and I should have received 25 Word Record Points....  My 15th best result in the "Global Points" is 19.9 points....and when I get a 6th place overall I get only 1.8 Points because enthusiasts do not receive "Word Record Points"....  I'm not afraid to say that the rules are obsolete, we do not have big changes in scores of "Enthusiasts League", turned a league without emotion....  I hope "Hwbot Talking Heads" change the rules of the game, will do very well for "Enthusiasts League" and Hwbot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Scott Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 It also says the enthusiast league is "the entry league for new overclockers". Being experienced enough to get WR points in this league, you're no longer a rookie and should move on. ^^^ This. Suck it up and move along. You'll not have your cake and eat it too in the E league. It's a pointless argument. Do you really expect the staff to totally restructure the leagues for a few entries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 A competition comes as it comes; each of the three leagues have their own rules and it's upto the participant to figure out how to gain positions in the league. For the enthusiast league, we chose to not have WR points count for a valid reason (enthusiast ~ low entry cost). Although this thread was very interesting as people brought up valid arguments in favor or against allowing WR points to count for this league, I don't see the benefit of allowing WR points. In other words: if you want the WR points to count for your personal total, you should maybe consider moving to the Overclockers League. With the passion and effort you currently put into overclocking, I actually think that moving up one league will give you a greater challenge than staying in the enthusiast league anyway.  Just wanted to say nothing changed since this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejo1 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 I think the current rules are correct as well. I wasnt even in favor of splitting the pro league, as it makes me feel like a smaller fish in a smaller pond. Move up to your competition level and compete, then take the ultimate satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergiorb Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The rules are correct as they are, and I do not agree changes in the leagues. You want either the points of WR, but forgets that the Pro Overclocker League have only the top 15 results, while the rules for the Enthusiast league have far more enthusiastic results (so less strong). Another detail is that you can only break records with multiple cards, where very few people compete and often even Pro League members do not use extreme cooling to VGA (you mean, for sure, 3D benchs and multi VGA). It is easy to verify this, because you can get very good with multiple cards, but if you play single card you will be so far the Top Dogs of the ranking. If you want the points of WR, which are worth only their 15 best results, move to Pro League or Overclockers League and prove. The only thing in my opinion should be changed, is the fact that the achievements for the league enthusiast be the same as the Pro League. Compare an Overclocking King from Enthusiast league with an Andre Yang, in my view, is totally meaningless and should be changed quickly. Today is this way and there are few Enthusiasts holding the achievement "Overclocking King". You know what I mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Personally, I do not think the achievement should be the same as Pro League No.1, but I think there should be a bigger title for the top 5 of each league... not just #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanCutress Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Long thread, can't believe I didn't see it. Perhaps I should look at the forums more often  I've read through, and there are two clear issues regarding the Enthusiast League and the OC League.  (a) The leagues are currently divided purely on cooling. (b) However the prevailing opinion is that the leagues should be divided on skill.  You should have the foundation of the league the same.  Thus if it is to be based on cooling, then the people should be able to push that cooling to the limit. I enjoy the challenge of knowing that my fellow competitors in the Enthusiast league also have that limitation as I am unable to put any of my kit under cold for various reasons.  If it should be based on skill, then we have to change the conditions by which people move up to the OC League. Either based on time, number of submissions, or total points. E.g. >500pts, in the OC League. or 50+ submissions, in the OC League. Or 6+ months gone by, in the OC League.  Please make a decisive decision either way, otherwise this will crop up every now and again. Decide once and for all whether the Enthusiast league is for people who want to battle it out on air and water only against those who are also only using air and water, or if the enthusiast league is for the initial introduction period on HWBot.  Personally, I'm for the first option - Enthusiast League by definition is air and water only. That is how it should be decided. If you can get obscene scores and WR points from air and water, then so be it. You still need a large amount of skill (popiromiro) (or cash (Dead Things), or both) to get to the top of this league. It's not just for new people. Some people stick to lower class formula because they like the feel and the challenge that it presents, rather than outright speed. This is how the league has been defined (even if not by words, then by pure action by segregation) and how I believe it should continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted June 17, 2012 Crew Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) I think the issue is some want to have the big points, yet want to stay in the same league... Coz they rock there and might be blown away ( due to so called limited resources aka fundings, etc ) in another "higher" skilled league. Â My point of view : If they want the big points, then it's time to step up and join the rest of us ... if they have the skill now for maxing out air or water clocks, then they can easily master more extreme cooling too... Probably this post will start another whining chime about the costs of LN2... Â The enthousiast league is partly an intro to the lovely world of overclocking, as you can post eg decent scores on air/boxed cooling solutions. If you want to be in the top, it's cash out time ( it's enevitable) : maybe get an airco to cool things extra down or move to a country with chilly temperatures,... But soon you will be maxing out and want more, then it's time to move to another league... I would rather see single GPU action only in the enthousiast league (as that's one of the points of some of the thread starters, those that reached high scores with multi GPU setups. Costing an arm and a legg due to the multitude of waterblocks.) as that will reduce the cost factor by far... Edited June 17, 2012 by Leeghoofd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 1x and 2x GPU in enthusiast league maybe. Â Â Â Heh heh heh heh heh heh what if Pro league could only use 2x/3x/4x GPU setups????????? :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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