Is the GIGABYTE Z170-SOC Force LN2 Retail or ES?

[Guest george.kokovinis]

[removed by mod]

Edited September 12, 2016 by Christian Ney

[ObscureParadox]

[removed by mod]

 

Whether it seems petty those are the rules, I agreed but hadn't said anything until now. I feel bad for the guy if they are removed but we have to be consistent in order to keep people happy and know where they stand.

 

Now with regards to the potential Z270 "ES" issue I'm kind of on the fence on where I deem it "legal" or not with regards to the rules. In theory it's not like this is a product that is completely unavailable to users on here (i.e. you don't have to be Dancop or 8Pack to own one) and kinda falls into the same bracket as the Galaxy Cards which we never put down as an "ES" card. Again to be consistent I don't believe we should put the card down as an "ES" motherboard.

 

Just my 2c and I know I don't completely share the opinions of the team but these are simply my own and do not reflect their views in any way.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Christian Ney

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Whether it seems petty those are the rules, I agreed but hadn't said anything until now. I feel bad for the guy if they are removed but we have to be consistent in order to keep people happy and know where they stand.

 

Now with regards to the potential Z270 "ES" issue I'm kind of on the fence on where I deem it "legal" or not with regards to the rules. In theory it's not like this is a product that is completely unavailable to users on here (i.e. you don't have to be Dancop or 8Pack to own one) and kinda falls into the same bracket as the Galaxy Cards which we never put down as an "ES" card. Again to be consistent I don't believe we should put the card down as an "ES" motherboard.

 

Just my 2c and I know I don't completely share the opinions of the team but these are simply my own and do not reflect their views in any way.

 

 

Hi Lewis,

 

No Team talk here my good friend.

EVERY opinion is respected, as long as it does not cross the line of being

disrespectful.

 

First of, the item under discussion is a Z170X board.

Obviously a laboratory improvement over SOC-FORCE, in small quantities.

Second, to be obtained, it is either thru a possible group buy or no other resource.

Lots of salt and pepper on "no other resource".

But certainly it can't be qualified as retail product.

 

As usual, rules are made to be broken.

As laws and even constitutions.

 

Let's see if the BOT respects its own rules.

either way, even if it was free, I would not pick it. M-OCF and Impact are more than enough.

And they come with warranty and after sales service.

[zeropluszero]

If @Massman can organise a group purchase through hwbot its a retail board.

 

a prize board is not valid as es, its a prize and perfectly suitable to be used by non-elite.

my board is a sample from gigabyte, happy to call that ES

if I was to give away my board, it would not be a sample to a person who uses it, it would be a gift.

[rtsurfer]

This is my final post on the matter (Or atleast i hope so).

 

The reason Hwbot has a different league & separate restrictions in place for ES hardware is because ES hardware gives people unfair advantage as it is superior to retail & exclusive. If there wasn't that superiority/exclusivity stuff, no one would care (or the majority wouldn't) to make it restricted.

 

The way this board's buy-in stands right now, it is not going to give a group of people unfair advantage & as such, shouldn't be restricted to Elite leagues. You can argue that it doesn't fit the definition of retail or whatever, i would think that majority of people here don't care whether the stuff they are benching is retail or not as long as everyone is on a level playing field.

 

So you can call it ES, call it Bunnying Super Duper Exclusive Classist Motherbaord or whatever. But if you are trying to restrict it to Elite league, you are full of sheet & you know it.

 

Edit:- I will say that its an ES until the group buy happens.

 

Edit2:- I wasn't aware that Chilli-man won it in a competition. That's kind of a blurry area. I can't blame the guy, but the situation is unique. Maybe its time to make a rule for "ES" given away as prizes, whatever the community chooses, but atleast make sure that we don't have to have this discussion again in the future.

Edited September 12, 2016 by rtsurfer

[Samsarulz]

As far as I know, ES hardware lacks S/N information and also warranty. If "Z270 Giga LN2" is offered with warranty from manufacturer and also has S/N (white sticker on box and motherboard) it will still be considered an ES product?

 

In my opinion (aside from rules) arguing about a MB being ES or not is like reporting a i3 6320 XTU score because you (any one ) couldn´t do 742/743.

[FatBoyNotSoSlim]

I've been thinking about this all morning and to the best of my knowledge, I think hardware falls into 3 categories when you really think this out.

 

Retail

Limited

Engineering Sample.

 

Lets look at this in reverse order.

 

Engineering Sample and in the case of Intel CPUs are restricted and kept under NDA (not that some people care/resell) for testing of OEM products, and are available months earlier than retail. Kaby Lake cpus are doing the rounds now for motherboard testing, and people with the hookups can dial in and get overclocking with them now. Now, once they go retail, the BOT makes the definition that as a current gen ES cpu, it's restricted in use for competitions, and points.

GPUs are also out there in ES stock, again for OEMs to be testing their implementations, QVL etc for their motherboards.

Motherboards, will surely be ES and under NDA. Theres some leaks here and there on Z270x motherboards that have been testing the new CPUs, and not much else other than a product name is known.

To my knowledge, if a product is ES, it's got limitations for sale. Can I talk to Intel and say, hey I'd like to buy Kaby Lake cpus please. Unlikely no, but if I was an existing OEM that needed the cpus for testing my motherboards for QVL, then I'd have access to them through B2B means.

 

Limited release is the grey area. The products were made, and were available to be sent out to reviewers and top overclockers, given as prizes, but, they may not directly be covered by an NDA nor may they have been directly available for SALE. BUT, I can purchase these if I put up the money for the production run.

 

Retail is retail, it was made in enough quantity that it was sold to the public somewhere sometime. Limited run Galax HoF cards, MSI Lightnings, G.Skill BDies and Gigabyte Z97X LN2 board all apply here, as they were on sale to the public at some point or another somewhere.

 

 

So on the topic of the Z170x LN2 board, it wasn't retail, but is it ES? So does that put it into a limited run grey area? I don't think its ES since it's a product that was designed for a specific overclocking purpose but wasn't hidden behind NDAs and can be purchased (sure, for the $100k cost of doing a production run). But it's not retail as it never went into the distro chain.

 

And according to the rules....

Elite...you get (engineering grade) hardware for alpha/beta testing overclocking capabilities

Not Elite...you receive hardware for reviews, which you afterwards use for your overclocking

 

And, for the no boints aspect, it looks to fall under 1.2 – UNRELEASED/NDA HARDWARE.

 

So maybe thats where the motherboard falls? Unreleased with no boints?

 

This has gotten complicated quickly.

[zeropluszero]

As far as I know, ES hardware lacks S/N information and also warranty. If "Z270 Giga LN2" is offered with warranty from manufacturer and also has S/N (white sticker on box and motherboard) it will still be considered an ES product?

 

In my opinion (aside from rules) arguing about a MB being ES or not is like reporting a i3 6320 XTU score because you (any one ) couldn´t do 742/743.

 

Mine and Chilli's board both had serial numbers and full warranty.

If this board wasnt capable of 743 no one would give two shits.

[Samsarulz]

Mine and Chilli's board both had serial numbers and full warranty.

If this board wasnt capable of 743 no one would give two shits.

Then according to@Fatboy, it should be classified as Limited, but still "gray area".

 

Funny seeing people doing a witch hunt for this MB. Hope de can reach a solution.

 

Enviado desde mi A0001 mediante Tapatalk

[JunkDogg]

[removed by mod]

 

Will you be the chairman of this league? just a joke mate.

 

 

I can see both sides of the fence and believe poor old Chilli has been only hounded now because of the 743 score.

 

It's a unique problem, considering the poor guy worked his arse off to win the board in a competition.

 

IMHO I'm just glad I haven't submitted with mine. Seems the headache wouldn't be worth it.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Christian Ney

[zeropluszero]

Sell it to a rookie and see this place lose it.

[ozzie]

Will you be the chairman of this league? just a joke mate.

 

 

I can see both sides of the fence and believe poor old Chilli has been only hounded now because of the 743 score.

 

It's a unique problem, considering the poor guy worked his arse off to win the board in a competition.

 

IMHO I'm just glad I haven't submitted with mine. Seems the headache wouldn't be worth it.

 

hell no JD , wouldnt want to step on the toes that already hold it...just a joke mate !!!

[KaRtA]

Lucky it wasn't me that won it then and used it in the Gigabyte Comp at the start of the year....

 

Sounds like a good time for a rule shakeup on these products.

[zeropluszero]

The only benchmark this should be relevant for is motherboard reference clock anyway. Same as hardware sharing rules.

 

eg. I am submitting XTU (CPU benchmark) with an ES videocard = no problem.

eg. I am submitting 3dmark06 (3d benchmark) with a kit of ES ram = no problem.

eg. I am submitting XTU (CPU benchmark) with an ES motherboard = no problem.

eg. I am a non-elite member submitting an ES 6950X XTU score = problem.

[GtiJason]

So the day we see the first Z270 board on Newegg, the ES/Not ES thing for Z170 LN2 board will no longer be an issue, right ?

 

Either way I'm going to enjoy mine thoroughly, overclocking memory is what I enjoy anyways. . . points are just a byproduct. I'm not anything remotely special in the hardware world and yet I found a way to get one. I have always lived by the rule if you want something that's hard to buy, find something to give you leverage. In this case it was a kit of killer DDR4 that got me what I wanted, tomorrow it might be a pair of rare sneakers. . . you never know

Edited September 12, 2016 by GtiJason

[GtiJason]

The only benchmark this should be relevant for is motherboard reference clock anyway. Same as hardware sharing rules.

 

eg. I am submitting XTU (CPU benchmark) with an ES videocard = no problem.

eg. I am submitting 3dmark06 (3d benchmark) with a kit of ES ram = no problem.

eg. I am submitting XTU (CPU benchmark) with an ES motherboard = no problem.

eg. I am a non-elite member submitting an ES 6950X XTU score = problem.

 

You forgot ES power supply, ES ln2 pots, ES digi thermometer, ssd, mouse, keyboard, yellow tinted OC glasses and on n' on

[zeropluszero]

Next you'll tell me I cant grey import videocards from Amazon US because it's killing Australian retailers.

[Rauf]

What I find most interesting is that in other discussions here everyone agree ES is not a problem whatsoever...

 

And yes, of course it would be ES.

[Rauf]

Ok, actually read through the posts here and as always some major misconceptions.

 

ES is not by definition "superior" to retail. ES CPUs are identical to retail ones as performance goes.

 

ES is still ES even if you win it, buy it, get it for free. If you buy an ES CPU from ebay, it's still ES. Even if you buy an ES cpu from Newegg, they/you have been tricked. It's still ES...

 

ES may or may not have serial number etc. A sticker cannot decide if a piece of hw is ES or not.

 

Limited editions are still retail if you buy them from a store and sale is open to the public. A product sells out, tough luck.

 

A straight from factory buy will always be ES if the product is never released to the public. No matter how many buy it. If I were to call Gigabyte and say I'll buy one board for 1 million dollars, would that make it retail? What difference does it make if 10 people call, or 20, or 30... It's still a privileged group found in an obscure forum. If a group of people from Australia were to make a group order, open to everyone on a local Australian forum would it be considered retail? If it were to happen from a small Swedish forum, all written in Swedish?

 

I think the main concern about ES is that people shouldn't feel cheated. People will feel cheated if unreleased hw is used here, period. They might feel a little less cheated if unreleased hw takes you to the separate Elite ranking. But people still feel cheated by it...

[websmile]

The handling of the board´s classification for normal ranking and if Isaac has to move to elite to keep points is something I will not decide.

In fact, I only interfere here to make something clear for users of the board, on competitions it will not be allowed unless it hits the shelves or is distributed and available world wide by maybe online shop. We handled this same way with MOCF before it became retail and on the Z170LN2, I already had to annoy some friends in the past at competitions, this will not change. It can not be purchased atm on a regular way. If the group purchase offer which was considered becomes reality, this position will be re valuated, result open^^

On the memory issue with ES, we decided to allow these because of fairness. Some vendors do not distinct with SPD for example if mems are retail or es, they simply flash standard spd on their samples, others use a personalized or ES specs spd. With the staff not being able to say which is which on some models, we decided to not enforce the ES rule. I hope this made our point clear at least at competitions

Edited September 12, 2016 by websmile

[Oj0]

I don't agree that prizes overrule ES. If (assuming I were a non-Elite member) I won a Core i7-7700K ES would that allow me to submit results without having to move to Elite league? Hypothetically of course.

[willemc700]

I dont understand the ES discussion.. high bin retail are fastest. Skip the ES rule.

As for the SOC force lN2, it is a mobo.. gigabyte didn't release it for retail... their loss. Asrock is laughing loud..

[I.nfraR.ed]

If @Massman can organise a group purchase through hwbot its a retail board.

 

a prize board is not valid as es, its a prize and perfectly suitable to be used by non-elite.

my board is a sample from gigabyte, happy to call that ES

if I was to give away my board, it would not be a sample to a person who uses it, it would be a gift.

 

I can't agree here, sorry.

Even if you buy e.g. an ES CPU from black market or someone else gives it to you as a gift, it is still an ES.

It doesn't magically become a retail part.

 

The thing is most of the time an ES CPU can be easily recognized by just looking at cpuz screen, while for other parts sometimes it is impossible (RAM for example).

But I don't think re-selling or giving some ES as a gift effectively makes it non-ES.

 

This board is not on Gigabyte site and at the current moment can't be purchased.

If the group buy goes through, then it would be open to discussion again.

 

BTW, I don't care about XTU, even though i have 742 result. This was the most boring bench session in my life. Thus not considering buying the Z170 LN2 board even if the group buy becomes a reality.

I already have a Z170 board, that I don't use, don't need another one.

Might be interested in Z270 though.

Edited September 12, 2016 by I.nfraR.ed

[K404]

I knew this board would get discussed

 

I've always viewed it as a super-limited, super-tuned board for a few specific purposes. CURRENTLY, it is only going into the hands of people who know what to do with it and how to handle it. It does not have to be "watered down" for Joe Anyone to use.

 

If the group buy goes through, then IMO it becomes "standard" limited run hardware. No problem.

 

At the moment, I think crosses a line for Elite League only. Or hardware points only.

 

The result of the group buy is the important thing here. (IMO)

 

 

The scores don't matter, nor rankings or who has to move to what league. It's the situation that needs to have a future-proof solution.

Edited September 12, 2016 by K404

[gavbon]

Any subs with this board should not count towards the ranking whatsoever, unless it's being sold retail; even if they only sell 10, 50 or 100, it would make this board retail.

 

If the group buy goes through, then sure, but until then...it's bull