Leagues idea

[KaRtA]

Hey HWBot,

 

In light of a few results and discussions again lately, I just wanted to float an idea that’s been going around in circles for years.

 

Also, keeping in mind the changes we have just experienced with the new revision, the simplicity of the points system now seems much better, so I can see a possible point to introduce  

 

What i I would like to propose is to reduce the Leagues down to 3. I know....I know..... we keep saying it but one day I hope there can be a simple resolution. 

 

My proposal :

Extreme League - for everyone using LN2, LHe, DICE and Cascade cooling. 

 

Enthusiast - everything from Single Stage, chiller, ice bucket, water, AIO, and air. (Possibly have monitoring to prove temps)

 

Novice or Rookie - 3-6 month period. Same cooling as enthusiast

 

Heres my thought process :

Those currently in Elite or sponsored could have a flag to their name. No reason for them not to be the same as everyone else IMO. They all use the same cooling, we all know the hardware they have access too, and to be honest, the majority of guys in there are all there by choice anyway, not because they work direct for the manufacturers. 

 

I chose from Cascade and colder due to their nature. It’s harder to access a cascade than a traditional Phase Change, and sometimes takes more skill to control, much like LN2. DICE is there because hey, if you need a pot, it should be extreme. 

 

Enthusiast needs to be openend up. Think back to the days of when Single Stages first appeared in retail. For many, this was the first big push into more extreme cooling in the hobby but accessible to the masses (with a big enough wallet). IMO, this is where most “enthusiasts” will call their limit, to remove the worry of killing hardware, or sourcing DICE/LN2 suppliers. So why not make it the limit to the league. 

 

Compounding the positives to this, it it will remove the “not possible on water” rubbish that always flows, and the bullshit will end. Want to crack open a window in a cold climate, good on you, you can do this without guilt (I’m sure most do now anyway without the guilt)

 

There’s been so many in enthusiast hide their real cooling over the years, or even remove their subs in order to avoid being caught out and moved leagues. If there isn’t the goal of staying top of the league and bullshitting to stay their, then the whole enthusiast league can only improve. 

 

Opening it up to chillers, Ice Buckets and Single Stage coolers will give them the ability to stop handicapping themselves and actually strive to improve and embrace the higher cooling methods. After all, of people don’t have a reason to improve, or try something new, why would they bother. I can call out some of the culprits I believe are in the community for this, but they know why they stay. 

 

Novice can have their own league, just to help them feel special and just have a go. 

 

Please, let’s discuss this constructively. I understand most people have had a gut full of discussing and having no resolution, but as a community that wants this to improve, I feel we need to.

 

I’ve run out of time typing this now (I’m on lunch), but would like to add to this a bit with an idea for competition (unless a mod would rather discuss in pm prior). 

 

Thanks for the space guys. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by KaRtA

[speed.fastest]

Im agreed to your very nice pov, it would be great to put chiller, single stage, ice bucket, and ambient cooler because if enthusiast still enthusiast after years they will likely going colder, and jumping from water to chiller isnt as hard as to jumping on cascade & ln2. For dice i think this will be around same as good single stage cooler/chiller.

[Aleslammer]

So I guess I'm going back to the Enthusiast league per your proposal and have to run monitoring software to prove what (using a chiller)

[ClockCruncher]

Sure, I guess lump me as an ambient bencher in with the guys doing chillers and single stages, and make me prove I'm on ambient? Maybe we could just keep it the way it is without messing with it? I don't personally see an issue with the ranking system now besides the one dude using a 7950 rig pic for every damn sub in enthusiast league, not even gonna mention the dudes name, everyone knows already lmao. 

[KaRtA]

1 hour ago, Aleslammer said:

So I guess I'm going back to the Enthusiast league per your proposal and have to run monitoring software to prove what (using a chiller)

Just floating the idea out there. Maybe monitoring wouldn't be needed, because people wouldn't need to hide their cooling.

40 minutes ago, ClockCruncher said:

Sure, I guess lump me as an ambient bencher in with the guys doing chillers and single stages, and make me prove I'm on ambient? Maybe we could just keep it the way it is without messing with it? I don't personally see an issue with the ranking system now besides the one dude using a 7950 rig pic for every damn sub in enthusiast league, not even gonna mention the dudes name, everyone knows already lmao. 

You are a novice, so you can be in the same league as anyone using the same cooling. Look at it in a more positive light, that you can try new things to actually improve your ranking further, other than worrying that you are stuck with one cooling method to stay in a particular league.

 

I know who you are talking about too, and that's part of my spark to raise the discussion. The reasons this happens is mods are not paid, over worked, volunteer their time and have more important things to focus on. So people like this that always want to remain at the top of a league will continue to just stay there, not improve or get better at hiding their ways to keep their position. Again, we make it a simple structure, and these problems will be a far less common venture.

 

Competition on the other hand needs to be handled far tighter, and the latest setups are looking like a great step in the right direction (nice work mods).

[GeorgeStorm]

As a side note I thought rig pics were a nicety not a necessity, haven't been in the enthusiast league for years so maybe I missed a rule change? Also don't think their scores imply cheated cooling.

I've no problem with the league's changing, when I started there were fewer leagues, I joined extreme when I got a single stage, but I feel the number of people who hide their cooling is relatively small, and certainly shouldn't be the main focus.

Edited February 27, 2019 by GeorgeStorm

[KaRtA]

hmm, I just had another look. I remember seeing in the submission screen, that ambient results required a verification Rig Picture. I can't see it now, but maybe it's because I am in Extreme???

 

I do feel proper rig pictures though help to remove any moderation issues. And why not share them, I love an icy pic.

Edited February 27, 2019 by KaRtA

[Noxinite]

Not a bad propsal, minus the parts on monitoring and being forced to include rig pics.

[ZFeSS]

Stop worrying about leagues and your life will be easier.

[speed.fastest]

I think there is no need monitoring if league is only LN2, LHe, Cascade and Enthusiast merged with Apprentice.

[Guest]

Never mind. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Guest

[bigblock990]

Right now the complaint is guys in enthusiast using a chiller and calling it ambient. With your proposal the complaint will be guys using dice/cascade and calling it SS to stay at the top of enthusiast.

Not sure how temp monitoring will help. For example the last few gens of Intel cpu show -5-0c in software monitoring.  So how would you differentiate between -70c dice and -40c SS?

[KaRtA]

Valid point bigblock. Way I was looking at it though, is it will be more encouraging for those in the league to experiment more, and take away a great amount of the bullshit. 

My feeling is there will be less of a problem with people running DICE and claiming to use a SS, then there currently is those running a hidden chiller or ice bucket and claiming as water. After all, not everyone has access to both a Pot and a SS. If they use a Cascade instead of a SS, I’m sure it will even come out in the was (because we have an idea of who and how many of these are around) .

The other upshot is there would no longer be the cold-vs-warm climate in results. It just is what it is then. It will make the league more competitive and less about who can bin/buy, or hide their actual cooling the best. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, bigblock990 said:

Right now the complaint is guys in enthusiast using a chiller and calling it ambient. With your proposal the complaint will be guys using dice/cascade and calling it SS to stay at the top of enthusiast.

Only x1 complaint at the moment. Same guy out of retirement back here doing the same shit with a fish tank chiller under his bench.

I knew he had a 1000 model over a year ago, but he upgraded to the top model 3000 apparently 

It's fine really ... he'll just keep putting up and no one will give a fuck. Scores that another Enthusiast can never beat 5.8Ghz

Fact he's Europe somewhere, cold ambient temps like 0 deg Celsius ... then his parts are outside to help further.

On top of that benefit a hidden chiller he has had for years that can aid a reliable bench run 1.7 VOLT outputting better scores.

__________

A protected species around here, that's ongoing with this blatant cheating. A lie over a long time becomes a comfortable lie.

 

[NATA 58]

for.  

KaRtA

               tells me what are the photos with these results?

[superpatodonaldo]

my opinion: the problem starts when the cooling solution is not correctly indicated/shown

for example I need to know some benchs results to estimate if my cpu/gpu is good or not (or max voltage I can push etc...); I know how I'm cooling my stuff and so I compare it in the ranking; if the ranking includes strage results (frequencies / voltages/ cooling) I have no more reference points

we can create/delete/change rules and point of view, most of the ideas/suggestions are good but basically the problem is HONESTY, in cooling/air temp/real freq and so on

less leagues could be a good idea, but at the end if one person want to cheat he always found the way

sorry for my english, hope understand

Edited February 28, 2019 by superpatodonaldo

[Guest]

2 hours ago, superpatodonaldo said:

we can create/delete/change rules and point of view, most of the ideas/suggestions are good but basically the problem is HONESTY

Bingo  no 3 look right here ^

[NATA 58]

then we make a single league. so no one can cheat

[Guest]

Leeghoofd calls them " loophole wizards "  they will still co-exist 

[bigblock990]

12 hours ago, KaRtA said:

Valid point bigblock. Way I was looking at it though, is it will be more encouraging for those in the league to experiment more, and take away a great amount of the bullshit. 

My feeling is there will be less of a problem with people running DICE and claiming to use a SS, then there currently is those running a hidden chiller or ice bucket and claiming as water. After all, not everyone has access to both a Pot and a SS. If they use a Cascade instead of a SS, I’m sure it will even come out in the was (because we have an idea of who and how many of these are around) .

The other upshot is there would no longer be the cold-vs-warm climate in results. It just is what it is then. It will make the league more competitive and less about who can bin/buy, or hide their actual cooling the best. 

I like where your head is at. I just don't think it will help. I feel the only real solution to the cooling method problem is not to differentiate at all. Go to 3 leagues. Elite (ES and vendor samples), everyone else, rookie (6mo limit).

[Mr.Scott]

1 hour ago, bigblock990 said:

I feel the only real solution to the cooling method problem is not to differentiate at all. Go to 3 leagues. Elite (ES and vendor samples), everyone else, rookie (6mo limit).

Right on.

[suzuki]

How come Elite is different than extreme?

karta idea is really good,put a tag so you know which one is Elite but no other difference between them.

You are talking about enthusiast not going into apprentice but meanwhile  there are more extreme not going into Elite although they are sponsored.

[GeorgeStorm]

People in Extreme/Elite don't really care about that as a general rule I think, there are more enthusiasts/apprentices annoyed.

[bigblock990]

19 minutes ago, suzuki said:

How come Elite is different than extreme?

karta idea is really good,put a tag so you know which one is Elite but no other difference between them.

You are talking about enthusiast not going into apprentice but meanwhile  there are more extreme not going into Elite although they are sponsored.

I definitely don't care if elite is separated or not. I thought most people wanted it that way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[yosarianilives]

I think we should take cooling out of the equation plain and simple, should just be rookie (first 6 months) and "enthusiast" (>6 months). Verifying cooling is too hard to fake, and given the recent push to make all benches cheat proof with wrappers instead of just a screenshot I think separating leagues by cooling and verifying with a rig pic is backwards thinking.

Edited February 28, 2019 by yosarianilives