Administrators websmile Posted December 13, 2020 Administrators Share Posted December 13, 2020 Ever thought about your os bugging? It is very rare ro reinvent the wheel on a 20 year old bm.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAGG Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) It's reproduceable (and very consistent), allso i didn't invent this tweak, it has allready been public on the bot for a while now Edited December 13, 2020 by TAGG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George_o/c Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 which one is it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted December 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted December 14, 2020 Hwbot obviously now allows replaceing executables like dlls in windows for example, time for you to test^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 https://hwbot.org/submission/4468838_terraraptor_wprime___32m_core_2_duo_e8200_13sec_219ms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Maybe I misunderstood the tweak, but you take the dll from a different version of windows and put it on an older version. It's not like you're changing the work that's being done, youre still doing the same work just more efficiently with lower os load. I don't really see how it's different than finding the best service pack of the best release of windows with the right updates. Nobody says running a special service pack of xp that was only released in China is cheating when running superpi so not sure how this is particularly different. It's not dll injection. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noxinite Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Old news, old complaints. Definitely not a bug, at worst "shady" OS tweaking. The thread on Terra's score covers the arguments for why this is reasonable and within the rules well. Obviously it might be worth considering if the rules need tightening, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GeorgeStorm Posted December 14, 2020 Members Share Posted December 14, 2020 I mean people use different driver versions, and very specific OS installs, ripping out all sorts of parts which are 'standard', so this comes across to me at least as fine on initial reading. Not even editing the files just swapping them, so surely something like modifying drivers to work with other cards would be more 'shady' but people have no problems with that it seems? (getting newer cards to run on xp for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 If anything should raise questions here is the validity of wPrime as a benchmark. The damn thing only seems to scale on raw CPU clockspeed and number of cores, without much regard to its architecture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 3 hours ago, websmile said: 3 hours ago, websmile said: Hwbot obviously now allows replaceing executables like dlls in windows for example, time for you to test^^ Tweaking is adjustment of benchmark environment. OS, drivers, runtimes, APIs, ACPI tables - everything is more or less different for everyone who is more or less involved into tweaking. This tweak is obviously less questionable than probably using Geek 3.4.2 vs Geek 3.4.4 for example (ehr, not sure what Geek3 gives better score?). As soon as we have a single allowed driver version for given 3D card, as soon as we can validate OS installation hash is the same for every bencher - I would then proceed with banning this tweak. It is in the wild, shared with the community and available for validation by everyone. Not one of those "secret" tweaks that are still unknown to comminity yet being used by their inventors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZFeSS Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Pushing these restrictions forward leads to mandatory hardware IDS integration named BenchOfficer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted December 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted December 14, 2020 27 minutes ago, TerraRaptor said: Tweaking is adjustment of benchmark environment. OS, drivers, runtimes, APIs, ACPI tables - everything is more or less different for everyone who is more or less involved into tweaking. This tweak is obviously less questionable than probably using Geek 3.4.2 vs Geek 3.4.4 for example (ehr, not sure what Geek3 gives better score?). As soon as we have a single allowed driver version for given 3D card, as soon as we can validate OS installation hash is the same for every bencher - I would then proceed with banning this tweak. It is in the wild, shared with the community and available for validation by everyone. Not one of those "secret" tweaks that are still unknown to comminity yet being used by their inventors. Completely wrong - 3,44 vs 3.42 is one benchmark with different updates - this tweak uses a dll that was never part of xp and comes from a standalone OS aka 7 and is injected in xp. I have no problem with this but this means we have to loosen up rules and handling bc in the past we made wrappers for am3 for example when people changed/swapped DLLs and similar stuff. It also raises the question if dlls or exes from linux for example should be allowed, dll is microsoft stuff no matter where it comes from. and if exchanging files on benchmarks liike 3d05 for 03 if possible should be allowed. You need to draw new lines^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, websmile said: this tweak uses a dll that was never part of xp and comes from a standalone OS aka 7 and is injected in xp Then ban all superpi runs in xp on modern hardware? Edited December 14, 2020 by TerraRaptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted December 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted December 14, 2020 1 minute ago, TerraRaptor said: Then ban all superpi runs in xp on modern hardware? I see no reason for this bc it is enabling compability. What´s your point? Anything iconstructive or just bs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, websmile said: we made wrappers for am3 for example when people changed/swapped DLLs and similar stuff I remember am3 problem was different, not swapping anything? Result was shown as part of 3d, no desktop etc - copy/paste it into paint and add cpuz/gpuz. Same about 3dmarks - altering dlls in benchmark directory was always forbidden as they are integral part of benchmark. But nobody says altering 3d driver is illigal - not a part of benchmark. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAGG Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, websmile said: and if exchanging files on benchmarks liike 3d05 for 03 if possible should be allowed. tiny diffrence there is that the .dll i changed is not part of the benchmark, but of the OS, if you change some runtimes in the OS that makes 3d effi better why not? I mean we run intel open cl runtime on ryzen 3 for gpupi, i run vb runtime from win7 on non win7 OS diffrence here is just that one is runtime from microsoft and other one is 3rd party runtime they are both not used as intended, but undoubtably work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 1 minute ago, websmile said: I see no reason for this bc it is enabling compability. What´s your point? Installing 3d drivers is also enabling compatibility with 3d:) we can nlite xp to exlude VB engine - wprime won't be able to run, incompatible with given OS setup as vb runtime is missing. Then install vb runtime to enable compatibility - voilà, same tweak done different way. Take GPUPi for CPU. It requires OpenCL driver. OpenCL driver is not a part of OS, not a part of benchmark. It won't run without it. Or you may update it to a different version. That opencl driver is just the same shit for gpupi as is vb runtime for wprime. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted December 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted December 14, 2020 Point 1, dlls were swapped at am3 to enhance performance. I still might have the files Point 2, yes, it is part of os and not benchmark. But if I exchange or mod dlls on the os, is there still consistency on the benchmark? If I replace 10 Dlls from xp usig win8 or Linux stuff, is it still XP? Innovation is welcome, but as said you need to draw new lines then. Happy discussing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, websmile said: is it still XP? Is tinyXP still xp if it has compatibility problems with games etc? I mean, not a rare case when msdn based XP works fine and those nlite mods don't. Yet, tinyxp is allowed here (to the best of my knowledge). Also, that is very difficult to replace any essential system dlls - ole32, kernel32 etc won't work even if you inject these from 2003 to xp. Another thing to consider then - official beta releases of OS. Hundreds of them - win2k sp0-sp4, winxp sp0-sp4 (yep, sp4 not official but still being used by many), Longhorn betas (those that are more on xp side and those that are more on vista side) etc etc. Should we disallow windows for Embedded if we bench desktops? Just imagine newcomer that uses daily OS with third party software to update system components from 3rd party repositories? Overall, my motivation was to match efficiency of some guys in socket 478. Believe me or not, even with that tweak and after 500GB of downloaded windows ISOs I'm still behind. That is the main reason to share good tweak - everyone should have a chance to compete on a level ground. Probably if everyone would share his knowledge, we can beat those guys or expose a real cheat. Edited December 14, 2020 by TerraRaptor 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted December 14, 2020 Author Administrators Share Posted December 14, 2020 You don´t get the point - removing is not what this is about but adding stuff from a different standalone OS generation. This also raises the question if writing your own files to replace working files to boost the score is covered or not. I already had questions about this and there is no rule. If your 478 mates did this you might search eternally and what they did is legal obviously when I see your arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted December 14, 2020 Crew Share Posted December 14, 2020 If we approve this we lost another benchmark in my book... I still remember I got contacted on Discord for this and I saw a slightly faster score at similar clocks. So though yeah why not. But don't you all think this is getting completely disproportionate now? CPUs running at 300-400Mhz lower and shaving of over 30seconds... This act will mess up the entire socket 775 Wprime ranking, imagine another DLL is found and that guy will beat your scores that you achieved by binning tons of CPUs and wasted liters of LN2 on by a watercooled CPU... I rather have this stopped right now and remove a dozen scores and to keep the integrity of the database and the users mertited points. If you guys vote to keep it well I only see the option to remove points here, as it will become a complete drama alike XTU or PCMark. Or we end up imposing BenchMate runs on Win7 so this might not occur. This ain't Wprime anymore and yes correct you are not directly are changing the benchmark, but the bottom line is it ain't fair to all those that either don't have their gem cpus anymore and did it the right way by just pressing Run Benchmark. To me its the same as running a 1990 Formula one car with a far more optimized fuel mixture that unleashes an extra 100Hp and break all the track records becasue the cars top speed is way higher and accelerates more rapdidly.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 New idea, let's ban new Intel opencl for gpupi, Avx2 is too strong, remove all score. Let's remove ALL 3dmark Score with lod enabled, it's changing workload and clearly a cheat. Tess disable as well. Also let's remove waza superpi, any ycruncher that has large page files enabled, all catzilla results especially those with audio enabled or 3dmark11 in background. Let's make hwbot 2021 about setting clocks and hitting run. Tweaking will now be illegal. And tbh this would benefit me plenty, my clocks are usually not too bad it's just my os effi that's weak. So I say, no more tweaks, let's go to just hitting run on bench. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted December 14, 2020 Crew Share Posted December 14, 2020 If a benchmark requires a 3rd party software it is like that and tweakable if you find the right version. LOD can also be set by anyone and there's a challenge to find the right setting To be honest the software tweaking is tiresome, especialy for moderation or setting up rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 I guess that will stop someone with another good tweak from sharing it (and tweaks are available for every benchmark). All that is needed then is to have just 0.1-0.2% advantage in efficiency to avoid questions - use another uber-tweak, use some sub-optimal settings and there you go. Why my score is that efficient? Oh, just some mchbar tweaking. Oh, just some subtimings tighter. I bet we won't see another waza tweak in public then (and wazza was introduced in 939 era if i'm not mistaken, so all results before that became zero value efficiency-wise). As some 3dmark01 (?) tweaks are not available etc. PS. And we also have MSI ABX that is NDA software giving advantage to a very limited number of ocers. And LN2 bios versions that are not publicly available. It relates to hardware tweaking but the idea is the same - tweaks not exposed to public. Sadly, it becomes another story about boints and not about true spirit of overclocking (that is getting it faster, higher, stronger). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAGG Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 40 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said: This ain't Wprime anymore and yes correct you are not directly are changing the benchmark, but the bottom line is it ain't fair to all those that either don't have their gem cpus anymore and did it the right way by just pressing Run Benchmark. I did the whole just pressing bench in spi 32M for years, never stood a chance, spent 20+ hours last week actually figguring out the effi there and now got it to a point where i stand a chance, not complaining just saying that there is abolutely no chance in many benches allready unless you spend hours on working out tweaks... 44 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said: This act will mess up the entire socket 775 Wprime ranking, imagine another DLL is found and that guy will beat your scores that you achieved by binning tons of CPUs and wasted liters of LN2 on by a watercooled CPU... I think that's exactly why @TerraRaptorshared it, so those guys can just replicate it and rebench, there is aboslutely no right to only have scores beat by higher clocked CPUs, if that were the case we might as well get rid off all benches but CPU-Z valid. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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