R5: Pro OC V2 - Pro OC Cup introduction

[Christian Ney]

One guy hipro5 to rule them all

[der8auer]

It's this time again

 

 

credits for meme go to CN

[SoF]

--> new benching backround

 

@hipro hell, it was about time for you to say a final word about this :nana: Thanks old friend!!!

Edited March 10, 2013 by SoF

[FireKillerGR]

lets see how it goes...

 

 

Seriously:

I hope Pieter has something good on his mind. Maybe its worth a try

[K404]

Of course he has something good on his mind.... Pro OC Cup!

[Oj0]

George you've been promising to return for years, what's happened to you? You're one of the names I miss most around here, in fact I mentioned it on XS just a few days ago. Your crazy mods were awesome

[Mr.Scott]

George you've been promising to return for years, what's happened to you? You're one of the names I miss most around here, in fact I mentioned it on XS just a few days ago. Your crazy mods were awesome

Not for nothin but you've been a bit of a stranger too Jonathan.

[phil]

I think it would be a good start if HWBOT crew apologised about not taking concideration on comunity opinion.Then I(and many more I beleave) would feel better and reconsider giving a chance to the cup.

[hipro5]

Hmmmm..........a WHOLE DAY passed and I STILL can't see the Pro OC League upfront......

 

OK mass, I'll let you put the Pro League BELOW the new thing that you have.

 

 

@ Oj0 : They supposed to come to my place and help me fix my bencing room but as we say here in Greece: "If you have friends like them, you don't need to have enemies".....

Edited March 11, 2013 by hipro5

[bob(nz)]

As I mentioned before in this thread, the Cup is the route we are taking and League will not be put back online. The evaluation of the Cup follows after minimum3 Cups and even if the Cup is not living upto the expectations it does not mean the League will be back.

 

Translated in plain English - I hear what you are saying but f%*k you and the 78% of the horses you rode in on - LOL

 

PJ, we dont know each other personally, so this isnt meant to be a personal attack.

 

I think it is great that you (and your team) give so much time and energy to keep HWBOT moving forward. I definitely admire and respect what you have done. The site brings out the competitive nature in so many people at different levels, chasing a multitude of results to be called "number one" and this is what we all love.

 

You say that this is a community - but I dont understand how you can say that with the path we are on (which is your way or the highway). Look at the people that are voting against this, these are some of the sites strongest contributors. Even if not everyone is speaking up that is for the idea, you would still have, more than 50% of your key followers saying they are not happy with this. This sort of "customer attitude" (or community / stakeholder attitude if you prefer) wouldnt last too long in the commercial world.

 

If you take this type of stance in a business, you had better be sure that you are right - because generally there are only two outcomes that I have seen in life (and I am an old fart)....

 

You will either be lucky and retain a level of business more or less similar to what you have today (new players less all the stakeholders that leave you) but may have an issue with the overall quality or standard of what you achieve.

 

The other potential outcome is that you will crash and burn because the new people will never make up what has been lost in the process.

 

Sorry man - I cant see how you think this is a step forward - but in the end it looks like its your call and we all live with the results.....after 3 rounds it may be difficult to go back.....

[Bobnova]

The idea, as I understand it, is that the previous model was not working. Regardless of how much many of the "pros" liked it.

I have to agree with that assessment, the only thing the pro league did that the combined league did not is give the XOC people a chance to be at the top of a chart. A chart that not many people look at.

The same names dominated, the same (almost complete lack of) coverage was gotten, the number of new people entering into benching stayed the same or dropped, the number of new faces at the top stayed the same or dropped.

 

It did not benefit the sport.

 

Will the Pro Cup benefit the sport? Hard to say. Does it have a chance? Yes. Is it a huge chance? Hard to say.

But, and this is why I support it now, any chance beats not working, hasn't worked, has had long run of trying.

 

What happens when the top people quit? The same thing that has always happened: New top people.

Can people with an ego large enough to get to the top of the pro charts, league or otherwise, actually quit and receive no recognition anymore? That's hard to say, depends on the people.

 

Quite personally I now welcome the chance, there's a chance that it will help the sport significantly, and it needs it.

 

 

 

To the above post, absolutely correct there are two outcomes:

 

1) Failure.

2) Success.

 

The pro league was a failure from the standpoint of the Big Picture, if not from the standpoint of the few people who could actually get recognition on it.

[SF3D]

Good opinions in this thread and I will add one more.

 

If I don't want to join the new league what will happen?

I can not go in to non pro league cause it would be just wrong in all possible levels. (Full support)

I have been doing a lot of work to get my scores and they were taken down with 1 click.

Now I would need to accept that I am a part of Team and what ever they do or I do will not benefit me personally anyway. (We have a good team now, that is not a problem)

Vendors will not support all the overclockers same way, even they would belong in to same team or if they are in PRO OC league.

 

Second thing is the benchmarks which are selected.

Tell me how some new young people from Finland can enter PRO OC league and be competitive? How do they get vendor support for 4 graphics cards and multi CPU platform or highly binned 3770K?

This new league did not change anything except the same people who were in PRO OC are now split in to teams. This way some teams will be heavily sponsored by vendors and rule the game just like it was in previous league.

So, what have changed and how does people see this new league more attracting? Do they now feel "wohoo I will join" and then realize it is same shit as before while being last in the list.

 

If you ask me, benchmakrs should be limited like Superpi 32M 5GHz challenge etc. where we have seen amazing performance from guys who have never been able to go in to top of the rankings.

This hobby is not about the skill when we talk about the WR's... everyone in top 100 have enough skills to take down world records if they have correct hardware in their hands, but taking down some low clock challenge is no walk in a park or peace of cake.

 

In the end, "You are as good as your samples are" and the ones who say this is not true are just fools.

 

So, once again, what have changed in the league and how it is better for audience or newcomers?

[K404]

A whole bunch of valid points

 

The guys with access still have access, sometimes the benchmark choice will make their company contacts irrelevant, then it comes down to who has the money. I *DO* expect some new names to shine in the Pro League "the right person with the right hardware at the right time"

[Oj0]

Not for nothin but you've been a bit of a stranger too Jonathan.

 

I have been. Other than for 24/7 stability and a local low clock challenge I ran in South Africa about a year ago in an attempt to spark interest amongst my fellow SA'ers, I haven't overclocked for a good two years. You might like what I'm doing now though, I don't know if you would classify it as a Classic Platform but my little project is 7 CPUs, 7 litres of LN2, 7.777 GHz goal

 

@ Oj0 : They supposed to come to my place and help me fix my bencing room but as we say here in Greece: "If you have friends like them, you don't need to have enemies".....

 

Time for a new benching room, who needs a kitchen?

[dinos22]

Translated in plain English - I hear what you are saying but f%*k you and the 78% of the horses you rode in on - LOL

 

PJ, we dont know each other personally, so this isnt meant to be a personal attack.

 

I think it is great that you (and your team) give so much time and energy to keep HWBOT moving forward. I definitely admire and respect what you have done. The site brings out the competitive nature in so many people at different levels, chasing a multitude of results to be called "number one" and this is what we all love.

 

You say that this is a community - but I dont understand how you can say that with the path we are on (which is your way or the highway). Look at the people that are voting against this, these are some of the sites strongest contributors. Even if not everyone is speaking up that is for the idea, you would still have, more than 50% of your key followers saying they are not happy with this. This sort of "customer attitude" (or community / stakeholder attitude if you prefer) wouldnt last too long in the commercial world.

 

If you take this type of stance in a business, you had better be sure that you are right - because generally there are only two outcomes that I have seen in life (and I am an old fart)....

 

You will either be lucky and retain a level of business more or less similar to what you have today (new players less all the stakeholders that leave you) but may have an issue with the overall quality or standard of what you achieve.

 

The other potential outcome is that you will crash and burn because the new people will never make up what has been lost in the process.

 

Sorry man - I cant see how you think this is a step forward - but in the end it looks like its your call and we all live with the results.....after 3 rounds it may be difficult to go back.....

My mate Pete says some wise things here. You guys should pay attention to the words of someone who is probably one of the more successful yet one of the most humble people I've met in my lifetime. Bit of wisdom from someone who knows what they are talking about should never go astray!

[Massman]

I think it would be a good start if HWBOT crew apologised about not taking concideration on comunity opinion.Then I(and many more I beleave) would feel better and reconsider giving a chance to the cup.

 

Phil,

 

I do feel I should apoligise. I have been going over this in my mind and am still searching for the right words. Let me get back to you on this.

 

You say that this is a community - but I dont understand how you can say that with the path we are on (which is your way or the highway). Look at the people that are voting against this, these are some of the sites strongest contributors. Even if not everyone is speaking up that is for the idea, you would still have, more than 50% of your key followers saying they are not happy with this. This sort of "customer attitude" (or community / stakeholder attitude if you prefer) wouldnt last too long in the commercial world.

 

If you take this type of stance in a business, you had better be sure that you are right - because generally there are only two outcomes that I have seen in life (and I am an old fart)....

 

You will either be lucky and retain a level of business more or less similar to what you have today (new players less all the stakeholders that leave you) but may have an issue with the overall quality or standard of what you achieve.

 

The other potential outcome is that you will crash and burn because the new people will never make up what has been lost in the process.

 

I don't understand how the removal of the Pro OC League - one amongst four user leagues we have running - suddenly makes everything we have done (and are still planning to do) less "community". Ironically, you say this attitude would not last too long in the commercial world - perhaps that is because HWBOT is trying to be more community than commercial?

 

I really appreciate your feedback, though, and the advice is definitely useful. I do realize that a lot of responsibility is on my back by doing this the way it's been done. As I put it to Vince (Kingpin) the other day, right after the announcement: "I'm putting my balls the railway track". A lot of people, including Dinos22, know that I have been declining on organising a new high-end top-end competition the likes of F1OC for years, even though the advise that was given to me was "just do it, just do it". The main reason being that I never felt comfortable with the suggested format or the options that were talked through.

 

I would not do this if I would not believe very strongly that it could work better than the League did. I've explained why I believe that and I've explained why having an additional League is not a good choice.

[dinos22]

you can remove me from TeamAU if that's causing an issue for TeamAU guys

 

please remove me from TeamAU group that i was in with Uncle Fester and Youngpro

[Rasparthe]

First off, I want to put out there that I don't particularly agree with the scrapping of the Pro League because I'm sure that is about the only thing I agree with the majority of this thread about. I thought that I would just try to avoid this thread since I'm not in the Pro League and didn't have any desire to be in the Pro League, but after reading some of the latest comments I couldn't resist.

 

I think that most of those "pros" browbeating and trying to bulldoze their old way of thinking back into status quo need a reality check. If every last of the 77 Pro League members suddenly got up and quit today, do you know what would happen to HWBOT?

 

Nothing.

 

If every member of one of the three leagues (not counting Hardware Masters) suddenly quit which would damage HWBOT the most? Pro? All 77 of 20838 members of HWBOT? This is the number one reason why HWBOT has trouble recruiting/attracting new blood to overclocking. A heavy focus on what 0.003% of the population desires, a systemic problem deep within the psyche of HWBOT. But that is a discussion for another thread.

 

Even if not everyone is speaking up that is for the idea, you would still have, more than 50% of your key followers saying they are not happy with this. This sort of "customer attitude" (or community / stakeholder attitude if you prefer) wouldnt last too long in the commercial world.

 

You can see it here, 50% of the key followers? Really? A handful of the "pros" are upset because of the new format and suddenly because they are the loudest, barking the most, squeak more than anyone else, "everyone" is upset. Sorry to inform you but the majority don't really care what happens to the Pro League. Look at the poll, an event that, as so many have predicted will be the end of HWBOT, managed to garner 71 votes. WOW, overwhelming. The loudest protests from guys like Dinos22 (last submissions - 109 days ago, 138 days, 165 days ago), Uncle Fester (163 days ago, 242 days ago), phil (47 days ago, 57 days ago), bob(nz) (86 days, 97 days), hipro5 (No new activity...?). These are the community guys that Massman should rely on to give advice on how to keep HWBOT current and growing? If I was him I would be much more interested in what guy like mtech (14 subs in last 31 days - #1 in XOC) or Dead Things (13 subs in last 31 days - #1 in Enthusiast) or Knopflerbruce (19 subs in the last 31 days) or hell even PedroC1999 (at the time of this writing the latest guy with 1st submission achievement) because it would be interesting to see what someone that has just joined thinks the Pro League should be about. A "community" that is pretty close to non participating arguing about how cutting a league will suddenly cause no one to participate. Seems a bit rich.

 

If you believe that Massman has the best interests of HWBOT at heart, if you believe he is intelligent and done extensive thinking, research, and talking with a variety of parties about this change, (including vendors) then how can you not give it a chance?

 

As I said at the start of this tirade, I don't believe that removing the Pro League was correct because it takes away something important from those that have taken the plunge to lift themselves above XOC. Leaving guys in limbo without ranking at all, even worse, in my opinion. Still, I can see what Massman is trying to do with this move, trying to use the "Pro" status as a lure for new blood to move up and make a name for themselves. I don't know if the execution was the best but time will tell.

 

I think it would be a good start if HWBOT crew apologised about not taking concideration on comunity opinion.Then I(and many more I beleave) would feel better and reconsider giving a chance to the cup.

 

And Massman, never apologize for leading when your the leader. Believe in your path if you honestly believe that you have the time/research/investigation that points you in this direction. Look above on how I agree with that definition of community. The first Cup hasn't even run its course yet. If it proves to not meet the all the goals you have then you can apologize, take your lumps like man and own up to it. Until then there is no need to apologize.

 

Just my two cents as a

 

... to disagree and keep my point of view that I believe is correct and followed by the most of the guys of the Pro league and real overclockers here.

 

'fake?' overclocker.

 

Flame on, flame on.

[dinos22]

i can tell you havent kept up with the league judging by the stats you are pulling on me, uncle fester. nice try!

 

here's our last submit and read the thread and see what massman said about our consistency of subs!

 

http://teamau.net/

Edited March 12, 2013 by dinos22

[Rasparthe]

Your right, don't know any of you guys at all, just pulling from your pages on HWBOT. Perhaps you submit scores under another name? No idea. I'm completely on the outside looking in from the position of a guy who has zero desire to be a Pro Overclocker and therefore don't follow the league. I do have incredible respect for Knopflerbruce (which is why I threw him in there) and a bunch of other guys but none of them happen to be Pro Overclockers. Which of course, speaks volumes, at least to me.

[Jimba]

Think of it this way - Would you be more interested in what some guy does on air cooling or what a group of people who have skills and experience do when given the latest hardware do on LN2?

 

Guys like Dinos22,Rubass,Fester,phill and even the legendary Hipro5 and Kingpin make this place what it is. Without the old guard you cant have the new guys..right?

 

It is with these guys and there knowledge that makes this place what is it is IMO.

 

Also how many of the 2000+ people on hwbot are actually contribute and do results? about 1/3 maybe? (I pulled that figure from my arse as i dont know the correct figure)

[Rasparthe]

i can tell you havent kept up with the league judging by the stats you are pulling on me, uncle fester. nice try!

 

here's our last submit and read the thread and see what massman said about our consistency of subs!

 

http://teamau.net/

 

Holy Crap?!? HWBOT allows multi-user accounts?!? You have to use 7 guys to submit in the Pro League just to make it into the Top 10? Your right, I take it all back. Pro League is in perfect shape, keep it! If Team.AU takes #1 spot then I guess someone with 10 guys would be needed to make a run in Pro League... Wait.. this is sounding more and more like a Pro Cup. Odd...

[dinos22]

No offense mate but this discussion SPECIFICALLY relates to Xtreme OC League and you clearly have not followed it, have no idea what the rules are, how the league operates, what the requirements are to keep it healthy and how it benefits HWBOT and wider community as a whole. I think you are out of your depth here and come across uninitiated and uninformed. I am not saying your opinion is not welcome and this is not some elitist club at all but please try to inform yourself a little better before expressing direct criticism of the league or its participants!

[rbuass]

I'm not in the Pro League and didn't have any desire to be in the Pro League.

 

Hey man!

What about are you discuss here?

Since you have no the feeling of the main involved overclockers..., Don't you think you're talking about something that you are not feeling?

Please man... take your time... take beer and popcorn and don't get into subjects that you are not part.

Tks

Edited March 12, 2013 by rbuass

[Massman]

No offense mate but this discussion SPECIFICALLY relates to Xtreme OC League and you clearly have not followed it, have no idea what the rules are, how the league operates, what the requirements are to keep it healthy and how it benefits HWBOT and wider community as a whole. I think you are out of your depth here and come across uninitiated and uninformed. I am not saying your opinion is not welcome and this is not some elitist club at all but please try to inform yourself a little better before expressing direct criticism of the league or its participants!

 

... and yet, this is a person outside the inner circle with a genuine interest in hardware and overclocking. It's specifically this group of people that should be looking up to what all the "crazy pros" are doing and should be following it every step of the way, talking about it and remembering the epic overclocking achievements just how I remember Hipro's Dothan modifications or Shamino's octupus cascade.

 

Fact of the matter is, neither the pro league and its competition nor the current stream of "3770K + HD 7970" speak to these people anymore. Mikecmd, winner of the EK WB contest, spoke the same words in this thread: "I don't really care" and "it's always the same". Again, someone with a genuine interest in overclocking and hardware, someone that should be inspired and following it closely, just goes "meh, nice score" when seeing absolute top results.

 

I remember how even a couple of years ago, mainstream technology news sites would pick up on the overclocking news when a new graphics card was released and cover the new stream of world records. When K|ngp|n posted his 10-odd world records ... how many sites picked up those records? And exactly how many discussed that record?

 

It's interesting how you call out someone that is actively participating at HWBOT, knows how the competitions here work and knows what overclocking is, but has not the slightest idea about what you're doing. Even though you've been in the Pro League for a while. Doesn't that boggle your mind? Doesn't that make you wonder why? Doesn't that worry you? It definitely worries me!