HWBOT extreme makeover

[Rauf]

Following the discussion in: “How to fix the rankings †(http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=160448) and “Adjustment for Global Points - Work in progress†http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=150289

Also considering things that have happened in the last few months; lot's of people have quit, MSI has scrapped all overclocking programs, the feeling that OC'ing (at hwbot) in general is struggling, fewer vendor competitions, rules are complicated or unclear, buggy benchmarks, ultra-expensive hw, etc…

 

I've come to the realization that the upcoming hwbot Revision 7 is meaningless, it won't do anything to improve or save overclocking. It's just more of the same, with small tweaks here and there to improve points distribution and reduce server load. What I believe is necessary is a total rework of how we compete at hwbot. Scrap the global points system. Keep the hw-points for those who want to pursue those, it still has a great value for many. WR's and GFP's will still have their glory, but it will not necessarily contribute to your ranking. What I would like to see is the following:

 

- Do seasonal rankings instead of the eternal ranking system we have now. Divide into leagues based on your performance. Move up and down in the leagues between seasons. Don't divide by cooling. If you do well in aircooling you will be moved up to a higher league. Get better cooling or don't do so well. Then we won't have the problem of "ambient" watercooled cpus running 1.7 volts and a load temp of 35C. The seasonal rankings have a defined start and end time. There will be more action. It’s the way every other sport works. We need to address sandbagging of course or it will not be very fun, but it is not an impossible problem to solve, I have an idea.

 

- The leagues can have a set number of benchmarks which are the only ones that gives points (in the leagues). The benchmarks can change from season to season. There can be hw-limits. But keep it simple, just anything below the level of xxx. Vendors can provide prizes if they like, if not we will compete for eternal glory But absolutely no vendor limitations!

- Never have benchmarks which produce bugged scores in competitions or leagues. Also move away from screenshots. Move to benchmarks which have online validation. I’m so tired of rules, rules, rules. They are so complicated that even pros make mistakes. Keep it simple to make it accessible for everyone, especially the gamers.

 

- Adapt to the present and the future. PC gaming is stronger than ever and will continue to grow. Move to game benchmarks instead of synthetic ones. Once when I was benching on LN2 some guy got interested and asked me how many FPS I got. I said that it was an irrelevant question and what mattered was how many 3Dmark points I got. But then I got to thinking, wasn’t it the right question after all? Back when OC’ing started it was all about getting more FPS. That is what really matters if we want to take overclocking back to its glory.

 

- etc…

 

There are tons of changes I would like to see, but the general idea is to move to leagues instead of one eternal ranking. Keep everything simple to make it accessible. Simple verification and hw-limits which reflect the hw most people (gamers) own anyway. Move to relevant benchmarks instead of super-synthetic ones.

[Massman]

On the note of people asking about how much FPS you got: you want to change what you like doing because someone else doesn't understand the value?

 

I think overclockers should stop listening to the people who downplay what we enjoy just because 'gaming' happens to be the new hottie in town. The roadmaps for overclocking stretches beyond 2020, so it's not going away. Overclocking is not gaming; it's something different. What we (people who are passionate about overclocking) need to figure out is how to get the 'gamers' to understand why it's important to pay attention to performance figures like 3DMark and get more people curious/interested/fascinated with the idea of performance tuning. That will only work if we are confident about what we love and not question the legitimacy of this hobby every time someone doesn't value it.

 

Just my 2c

[nickolp1974]

My 2c!

 

I'd imagine a good number of the older generation Overclockers started there passionate hobby to indeed get more FPS because hardware was lacking and most probably behind the software/games so OC was born to get those numbers up and it snowballs on from there. People are less interested because now it is the other way round, the hardware exceeds what is being played so no need to overclock or very little. Even cheap vga's are capable of playing the latest games, yeah you may have to turn some settings down but they play good. The folk with the lower end kit are more likely to OC but there hardly ever going to get into more exotic cooling as it costs too much and if they could afford they would just buy better components.

I believe once the current breed of overclockers finish there term there will not be much left of the scene, simply because there is no demand due to what i have said above. You will always have a handful of people doing it, it gets in your blood and theres no turning back! The heady days of OC are coming to an end, not extinct but close and i for one wish it wasn't

[Alan_Alberino]

I believe once the current breed of overclockers finish there term there will not be much left of the scene, simply because there is no demand due to what i have said above. You will always have a handful of people doing it, it gets in your blood and theres no turning back! The heady days of OC are coming to an end, not extinct but close and i for one wish it wasn't

 

I don't think so, I know lot of new overclockers and each time I see more and more people joining this, and receive lot of questions everyday asking about OC Tips even being nobody in the OC world...

 

Also there's a lot of people like me that is very young (I'm 19 years old) that still has a long time to keep overcooking and promote this beautiful hobby so more people can enjoy it, so I think OC won't die, at least in a good amount of time

[Oj0]

I couldn't really care less about gaming. I played a bit of BF4 early this year, and a bit of Rocket League in May. However, I've been trying to better my 3D efficiencies almost daily for most of this year. To me the two are not the same and I don't even want them mixed. It's like someone asking a top fuel dragster how many MPG he gets - he doesn't know and he doesn't care.

[newlife]

As someone who doesn't chase points or rankings a seasonal ranking seems stupid as such a thing as it would likely take even more light from the kind of things I do

[GeorgeStorm]

A big issue I see with a seasonal ranking is I think it'll make it even more of a money game, as you won't be able to sell on stuff you've already benched?

[mickulty]

These are interesting ideas for overclocking as an esport, but for me personally if I had to pick between OC-esports and the more relaxed side of hwbot (chasing cups, chasing acheivements, and chasing 2 hardware points) I'd pick the latter.

 

Now, with that said, the stuff being described sounds like it'd be really good for creating a more 'exciting' form of overclocking, raising the profile and helping to get people involved.

 

Maybe the thing to do is have separate rankings, like hardware masters, for anything that comes of this suggestion rather than upending hwbot as it stands?

[Mr.Scott]

2 leagues.

Sponsored and everybody else. Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough. You want more points? Bench more stuff or spend on the high end stuff. Your choice.

Pretty simple eh?

[zeropluszero]

snip

 

How about we dont.

[Alan_Alberino]

Just readed in detail the 1st post of the thread... What you saying is exactly what OC-Esports divisions make, season competitions allowing any kind of cooling limiting each division to specific hardware so everybody has similar performance, if you want that system you already have it at oc-esports.io

 

I think the ideal system is a WELL distributed point system with divided CPU and GPU categories for global points, + WR points both for CPUs and GPUs, then assign 20 CPU hardware points slots, 20 GPU hardware points slots, 15 CPU global points slots, 15 GPU global points slots (In case of many categories of GPU Globals), and 15 Competition points slots, I would be happy with that...

 

EDIT: About game benchmarks, first, in a real scenario nobody will play with LN2 on their machine, and second, spending 60 dollars in each game will make imposible to test game benchmarks so I should say forget about it

Edited August 25, 2016 by Alan_Alberino

[filmbot]

2 leagues.

Sponsored and everybody else. Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough. You want more points? Bench more stuff or spend on the high end stuff. Your choice.

Pretty simple eh?

 

As someone who has been around long enough (not benched long enough) to watch the community and this site grow, I appreciate this viewpoint more than others. The elaborate plans to even the competition out is nonsense to me as if you don't have the money or backing to be at the top, you're doing it for nothing but yourself. And if that's the true point, who really cares about your standing in one league or another. You don't need league rankings to understand how stack up against others, you have a database of results to compare to.

 

If you find enough to be at the top of top, grind your way up. Being ranked first in a hardware league that is a sub-league of another league really isn't that rewarding.

 

Not everyone needs trophies.

 

:end nonsensical rant:

[Rauf]

On the note of people asking about how much FPS you got: you want to change what you like doing because someone else doesn't understand the value?

 

I think overclockers should stop listening to the people who downplay what we enjoy just because 'gaming' happens to be the new hottie in town. The roadmaps for overclocking stretches beyond 2020, so it's not going away. Overclocking is not gaming; it's something different. What we (people who are passionate about overclocking) need to figure out is how to get the 'gamers' to understand why it's important to pay attention to performance figures like 3DMark and get more people curious/interested/fascinated with the idea of performance tuning. That will only work if we are confident about what we love and not question the legitimacy of this hobby every time someone doesn't value it.

 

Just my 2c

It's not about selling out or following the "new hottie". It's about being part of something that has the ability to evolve and turn into something better. Something that thrives. But most importantly: something that is meaningful in the long run.

 

There is nothing left for competitive XOC, who is responsible for this if not hwbot? Who has not been able to adapt and evolve to not only save our "beloved hobby" from dying, but also not managed to turn it into the e-sport you promote it as. And still you want everything to stay the same. It's the world that should learn to appreciate hwbot.

[K404]

It's the world that should learn to appreciate hwbot.

 

 

It's hard being ahead of the curve. People usually don't figure it out or show appreciation until it's too late.

[Splave]

I think hwbot is moving forward, do you know PRO OC league there are 5 or 6 guys getting $500 a quarter and sponsored hardware every couple months? How cool is that? If that does interest you you can still grind away for elite ranking, or HW master rankings.

 

IF we try to be gamers we will be beaten by the gamers that do it better. I wouldnt mind a 10 million dollar prize pool instead of 15K though lol. Game benches are nice but harder to lock down it seems but I would like to see more of those too instead of just 3dmarks over and over.

 

Something needs to be done but its hard to put your finger on what it is, I feel the same way.

[Massman]

Following the discussion in: “How to fix the rankings †(http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=160448) and “Adjustment for Global Points - Work in progress†http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=150289

Also considering things that have happened in the last few months; lot's of people have quit, MSI has scrapped all overclocking programs, the feeling that OC'ing (at hwbot) in general is struggling, fewer vendor competitions, rules are complicated or unclear, buggy benchmarks, ultra-expensive hw, etc…

 

I've come to the realization that the upcoming hwbot Revision 7 is meaningless, it won't do anything to improve or save overclocking. It's just more of the same, with small tweaks here and there to improve points distribution and reduce server load. What I believe is necessary is a total rework of how we compete at hwbot. Scrap the global points system. Keep the hw-points for those who want to pursue those, it still has a great value for many. WR's and GFP's will still have their glory, but it will not necessarily contribute to your ranking. What I would like to see is the following:

 

- Do seasonal rankings instead of the eternal ranking system we have now. Divide into leagues based on your performance. Move up and down in the leagues between seasons. Don't divide by cooling. If you do well in aircooling you will be moved up to a higher league. Get better cooling or don't do so well. Then we won't have the problem of "ambient" watercooled cpus running 1.7 volts and a load temp of 35C. The seasonal rankings have a defined start and end time. There will be more action. It’s the way every other sport works. We need to address sandbagging of course or it will not be very fun, but it is not an impossible problem to solve, I have an idea.

 

- The leagues can have a set number of benchmarks which are the only ones that gives points (in the leagues). The benchmarks can change from season to season. There can be hw-limits. But keep it simple, just anything below the level of xxx. Vendors can provide prizes if they like, if not we will compete for eternal glory But absolutely no vendor limitations!

- Never have benchmarks which produce bugged scores in competitions or leagues. Also move away from screenshots. Move to benchmarks which have online validation. I’m so tired of rules, rules, rules. They are so complicated that even pros make mistakes. Keep it simple to make it accessible for everyone, especially the gamers.

 

- Adapt to the present and the future. PC gaming is stronger than ever and will continue to grow. Move to game benchmarks instead of synthetic ones. Once when I was benching on LN2 some guy got interested and asked me how many FPS I got. I said that it was an irrelevant question and what mattered was how many 3Dmark points I got. But then I got to thinking, wasn’t it the right question after all? Back when OC’ing started it was all about getting more FPS. That is what really matters if we want to take overclocking back to its glory.

 

- etc…

 

There are tons of changes I would like to see, but the general idea is to move to leagues instead of one eternal ranking. Keep everything simple to make it accessible. Simple verification and hw-limits which reflect the hw most people (gamers) own anyway. Move to relevant benchmarks instead of super-synthetic ones.

The Limited set of benchmarks and Seasonal aspect is essentially the Challenger Divisions, no? 5 benchmarks, restricted hardware per category. Swap benchmarks every round.

[Rauf]

@Massman

It's a bit similar, but evolved. Challenger is like an ordinary competition but without prizes. You bench 5 stages for maximum 50 points. Of course it's not going to attract the top guys who can improve their points by 100-150 in one single benchmark. I want to compete with the best or else there is no motivation.

 

My idea is to get rid of the current ranking and replace it with the seasonal leagues. It has many advantages in my book:

 

It is easier to get into. Seriously who has the time and interest nowadays to build a profile for years, collecting rare old hardware that you may or may not find the time to bench in the future. We can all agree that this is a hobby, not a profession. But the way the rankings work here requires you to work full time to keep up. We need to get it down to a hobby level amount of time.

 

With a longer season and more stages (benchmarks) it will be worth it to invest in the hw needed. Who invests in the hw needed to be truly competitive in ch div 1? 6950X and Titan XP for maximum 50 points...

 

We can decide on hw limitations which solves the problems of ultra expensive benching. My idea would be skylake/haswell/ivy (non -E) + non titan gpus. The non hedt-platforms are the most popular both here at hwbot and with the rest of the world. But gpus would allow for the 980 ti and 1080/ti because they are the gpus which are designed for extreme overclocking. And also they are quite popular with the gamers etc.

 

It would not turn into a sandbagging contest, I have a clever way to make sure you push from the start until the end.

 

We of course still have the wr/global/hw rankings. Keep the hw-league if you like for the ones that like that. People who don't want to compete in the seasonal leugues can still bench the same way they do today for a few good global positions.

 

Maybe I will add more to the list but my train is arriving now

[Strong Island]

the oc esports divisions are pretty cool, maybe we could increase points alloted for the standings, like maybe winner of each round gets points similar to global first place, could attract more people,

 

also some global first places were taken in round 2 so it's not like a bunch of weak competitiors or something.

[Massman]

@Rauf: I've heard many people say they like the way the League is structured exactly because it doesn't force them to compete every month to have a decent ranking. I understand both points of view, and they are both very legitimate approaches to the hobby. But incredibly hard to combine.

 

Perhaps a solution is to increase the value of the Challenger Divisions to 250 points for round? (just an arbitrary figure). The the League could be based on:

• Top-10 OCE points
  
• Top-15 Global points
  
• Top-20/30/40 Hardware points
  

That would certainly shift the balance in the direction of the competition points. But the Challenger divisions do ensure that everyone has a way to compete for big points: from i7 to i3, FX to APU, and even the old-school overclockers.

 

At first thought, I think we should then also have the user pick his division in the user profile and only points from that Division would count to the League. This to prevent that grinding the Challengers is the way to score lots of points.

 

This would require fairly low amount of effort on the development side and is also not so disruptive. It would be easy to start from Jan 1st in that case (aligning with the OCE season).

[speed.fastest]

To show your skill you dont need on the top of league. Did you see many of the overclockers legend not in top rank? Thats normal

[Rauf]

To show your skill you dont need on the top of league. Did you see many of the overclockers legend not in top rank? Thats normal

Having a ranking that no one cares about is not a positive thing in my book...

[speed.fastest]

Having a ranking that no one cares about is not a positive thing in my book...

 

Dont you think when points removed not only you affected, but all. So why your rank dropped when points removed? You have to be complete overclocker to join top of the league. Just i dont like it when hwbot biased to money oriented, but i dont see hwbot to money oriented, because last world tour in Indonesia you only need an i5 6600K/i7 6700K with disabled HT & Z170. Benching 2D & 3D without spend too much money, and you only need to bring your own hardware. So i think if HWBot doing the same (no money oriented) than its okay for me.

 

ps : Don't take it personally, i want to have friend with everyone, dont want any hate.

Edited September 17, 2016 by speed.fastest

[Aleslammer]

@Rauf

 

You're statement in post #21 is rather broad, personally I do care so in the future please refrain from speaking for me.

[Johan45]

I like the idea of limiting challenger DIV to one. Pick and stay with it. Shouldn't keep you from submitting to others but only score points for one. Personally I'm busy enough doing one division and still find it hard to bench what I "want" when I need the time to bench for the current competition. With the TC, CC and Challenger that's year round benching for competitions already.

[macsbeach98]

I like the idea as well of limiting the Challenger series to 1 division.

Especially if the points are better for winning that division.

I have been trying to compete in multiple divisions as well as the TC and its too much to put 100% effort into everything.