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Poll - competition points for career league

Should the career league include competition points?  

80 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the career league include competition points?

    • No, as new members can not possibly compete with existing members as the competitions are closed
    • Yes, but limit to 5 highest points
    • Yes, but limit to 10 highest points
    • Yes, but limit to 30 highest points
    • Yes, but limit to 10 highest competitions points of this year (same as seasonal)
    • Yes, unlimited


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New, diligent & resourceful member can boost their point via Novice Nimble & Rookie Rumble tho..
And maybe surpass the poor Extreme / enthusiast / apprentice point with ease. Since these guy league only can participate in Division / sponsored comps in HWBot.
*If these comps still managed, haha

I'll vote to include Comps point but with limited number. - E.g. 15 highest comps point of your HWBot account history.

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Well, if is unfair with a new members, no. 

To win a competition, imho, is jus a goid prize and don't need to be in the ranking. 

 

Best wishes 

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Competition points only! Make sense per season. In addition competition points dont make any sense for Country cups..... While we might be 50 or 100 people OCing in teams I was only the single participant from Sweden in the same 2 years running. Despite having a super rocket like Rauf in Sweden.... Thus what would I do to gain points? assign another country to benefit the most? Well i live in Philippines at the moment and guess what .. i would still be the sole participant.

We are a somewhat steady team in MLG the last year but counting the last 2 we had a major change in loss of high scoring members. Could I as member affect that ? not one bit, and i dont know the reasons for them leaving but they are still my friends. Meanwhile for the Country cup points the answer was simply.. "we have decided not to compete this year" despite me actively requesting support on the Sweclockers website where most are available for Sweden. (did not need serious scores just a swede competing in the sections I could not) I still became country number 20 in the top scores... go figure... 2-3 years ago i added many points but the swedish ... team divided the loot among the internal team. Not that I care, i compete to gain scores and am happy to buy the hardware. it though showed the unreasonable issue of country points counting towards any totals, seasonal or not. (unless ofcourse you make a handicap for a country with 1 participant compared to thousands.....) meanwhile global and hardware points are effectively a true measure that can span years independently.

Scores in competition might be my personal best or it might not but it can either way contribute to a team based on the unique hardware, that however only makes any sense for a season.

its otherwise like saying.. because xxx team /country won olympics in 1912 it should count in 2020.... who remembers? and cares about how many gold anyone racked up then.. (except to say Sweden is the only team to win World championship and olympics gold in the same year in ice hockey despite being so small a country ... and i dont even remember the year that happened and no one would care except swedes). Meanwhile everyone still compete against the actual world record in whatever sport, every single year, no matter how many years it takes nor where the record holder came from.

Edited by Matsglobetrotter

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I hope the results will be interpreted sensibly as it looks like the single option with the most votes will be "No, as new members can not possibly compete with existing members as the competitions are closed" whereas many more people are voting for some form of "yes".

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1 hour ago, mickulty said:

I hope the results will be interpreted sensibly as it looks like the single option with the most votes will be "No, as new members can not possibly compete with existing members as the competitions are closed" whereas many more people are voting for some form of "yes".

that just mean the voting system was imbalanced so the questions should be reformulated to have 2 negative one neutral and 2 positive answers....

As you ask the question you will get the projected answer....

"We should not have career league include competition points, should we? the most likely answer  is , no. "

"Ofcourse we should have career league include competition points, u  agree? . the most likely answer is , yes. "

Thus to do the poll in this particular case should be like the "brexit poll", simply yes or no. 

 ... The illusion of giving people a choice 😉 but then that's my two pesos of comments

 

Edited by Matsglobetrotter
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1 hour ago, mickulty said:

I hope the results will be interpreted sensibly as it looks like the single option with the most votes will be "No, as new members can not possibly compete with existing members as the competitions are closed" whereas many more people are voting for some form of "yes".

Every heard of a majority? Yes currently has it, no doesn't. If the poll had 5000 Yes options totalling 90% and 1 No option totalling 10% would you still want that to be interpreted as a No vote? 😂

Edited by unityofsaints

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14 minutes ago, unityofsaints said:

Every heard of a majority? Yes currently has it, no doesn't. If the poll had 5000 Yes options totalling 90% and 1 No option totalling 10% would you still want that to be interpreted as a No vote? 😂

This becomes if you do not win then draw?
The survey has rules and won the NO.

💣LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IT IS UNTIL 2021

OPTION 1 WINNER!!! 😁

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Currently 2/3rd votes for some kind of inclusion of competition points, so the most sensible way forward would be to evaluate exactly how much points you should get for participating / winning in a competition.

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Sorry but the poll was stacked from the get go, so I'm assuming you wanted them added from the get go, just not sure how many.

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On 1/27/2019 at 11:52 PM, IvanCupa said:

*snip*

They haven't existed for a while as far as I'm aware.

7 minutes ago, Alan_Alberino said:

So, this is a poll where the most voted option isn't the winner? Nice................

In terms of yes/no yes easily won, just spread out over different options.

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5 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

If the poll had 5000 Yes options totalling 90% and 1 No option totalling 10% would you still want that to be interpreted as a No vote? 😂

Do you think that counts as "sensible"?  I don't.  Rich has the right idea, recognise that most people want them included and go from there.

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On 1/27/2019 at 7:11 PM, unityofsaints said:

The wording of the "No" option is subjective while the "Yes" options aren't. It also fails to understand the 12 month rolling competitions schedule which was the basis of the Rev. 7 points system. 

So not only does this poll have a bias, the bias is also formed from an incorrect understanding of the facts. I'm just glad Yes is winning regardless. 

 

1 hour ago, Aleslammer said:

Sorry but the poll was stacked from the get go, so I'm assuming you wanted them added from the get go, just not sure how many.

Make up your mind guys. Am I biased towards Yes or No? We can't even agree on how I am trying to influence the poll! :P

IMHO it's ok to add competition points if a new member can catch up by being active in the competitions for 1 or 2 years. 5 or 10 seems to be fair.

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Generally speaking the Yes's probably would of won the day but would of felt better about the out come if one question was asked (Should we add comp pts to career). Then a later poll getting an idea of amount. 

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2 hours ago, mickulty said:

Do you think that counts as "sensible"?  I don't.  Rich has the right idea, recognise that most people want them included and go from there.

For once we're in agreement. This is like xmas and easter on the same day! ;)

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I think unlimited is the best for career, because someone will always retired, and new member still have time to catch up if xoc competition is still a thing.

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6 hours ago, speed.fastest said:

I think unlimited is the best for career, because someone will always retired, and new member still have time to catch up if xoc competition is still a thing.

+1 to this.

The new guys if they hang around WILL eventually earn enough points to be competitive, that being entirely their choice to do or not to do.

The older guys will one day move on, just stop benching, drop dead...... In short the older guy won't be around forever to remain out front. Using myself as an example I've been benching here for 10 years now. If a rookie sticks with it they too will one day have the same 10 years in. During all this I could well quit it too, let's say about 13 years in and I'm done as an example of it.

Once the new guys goes 13 years like I had done he's matched me period placing them on equal footing with me and what I've done - However exactly what they do with the time is up to them. They at that point will replace the old guy(s) for who's at the top.

It's just like at a job somewhere, as the old ages out and retires the new steps up and takes over. In truth there is little between those guys in total time invested whether it's an old or new guy, it happens at different times relative to each other meaning one had to start first but the other will finish later equalling things out in the end. 

I do not see any point or sense in stripping competition points from those that's already earned them, put in the time and expense to get them only to have them shoved aside to accomidate the new guys.

We are once again subscribing to the cult of accomidation that exists here doing this.

That never happened for us and we're doing OK, they can do the same because they aren't any better than we are to earn it.

Edited by Bones
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For those who are suggesting unlimited, you're also suggesting getting rid of the 12 month limit that comp points have (always?) had I assume?

Also as a side note, the catching up thing doesn't completely work as the number of competitions has dropped and will continue to do so I feel compared to past years.

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I keep seeing this issue of competition points being "stripped" or "removed" from older members. The institution of a top5/top10 (as opposed to unlimited) for career comp points doesn't really strip away comp points from anyone, if you placed 1st in a bunch of big OC events in like 2010, then those points will still be here, counting towards your ranking if you don't have any other better results.

Even under rev7, as George points out, comp points evaporated after 12 months and I didn't see people getting all riled up about their comp points being "stripped" even though that is exactly what was happening. In actuality, under rev8, older members will be getting more comp points on a permanent basis then they ever have been (if comp points always had a 12 month expiry in the past before rev7 - feel free to correct me if this isn't the case).

I also agree with the other point George makes, that for newer people trying to catch up, it will most likely take significantly longer to accumulate a similar number of points to older members, because the number of competitions every year has started rapidly decreasing. Here's a graph that illustrates this, with competition data taken from here.

rj42RA2.png

Just to put some numbers on this, if you participated in 50% of comps from 2013 - 2018 (making a simplifying assumption that all comps give the exact same amount of points), and if there were only 45 comps per year for the forseeable future, it would take just over 12 years for the new member to catch up at the same participation rate, and only if you stopped participating in any comps. What kind of bullshit is that?

And even if we dismiss the fact that it might take significantly longer for new members to be on an equal footing with older members, if older members continue to participate in new competitions, then there's the hypothetical scenario where an older member will always have more competition points, regardless of how much time a new member puts in. The fact that is possible with unlimited career comp points is a tremendous issue.

I don't see why we wouldn't want to improve the system to promote equality for all members going into the future, rather than advancing the interests of older members at the expense of new members.

Edited by Cautilus
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Thing is the number of comps held is up to the staff, they can if they want increase the number of comps held if they want.

I know things have changed in the way of less comps in recent times but that in itself as all other things are could well be changed in the other direction too.

You do make a good point about how comp points were dropping off but that could be subject to change too if the staff decides to do so.

As for catching up it's no different than it was for us when we started off, we too were behind the rest when we started but with time we managed to catch up. Also look at the number of new guys that stuck with it and climbed the rankings in short order, a big part of it is up to the bencher. There are also guys who have half the time if that much in it I have that's ranked above me, that in itself proves it's not solely a matter of time being involved, it's at least in part the commitment and effort given by the bencher.

I don't see the fairness in discounting what the older guys have done, all of us still had to put in the same effort and expense to do it and that shoudn't change for anyone if it's to be done equally across the board, what one earns is theirs.

The new guys can participate in comps in the same way we have, it's all up to them to either do so or not. No amount of accomidation can change that if they aren't willing to work for what they get, same as we've had to do all along.

Speaking of the number of comps held, the staff could look back and see how those were done and possibly use it for an idea or template for planning future comps if they want, it's certainly possible to do.

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37 minutes ago, Cautilus said:

I keep seeing this issue of competition points being "stripped" or "removed" from older members. The institution of a top5/top10 (as opposed to unlimited) for career comp points doesn't really strip away comp points from anyone, if you placed 1st in a bunch of big OC events in like 2010, then those points will still be here, counting towards your ranking if you don't have any other better results.

Even under rev7, as George points out, comp points evaporated after 12 months and I didn't see people getting all riled up about their comp points being "stripped" even though that is exactly what was happening. In actuality, under rev8, older members will be getting more comp points on a permanent basis then they ever have been (if comp points always had a 12 month expiry in the past before rev7 - feel free to correct me if this isn't the case).

I also agree with the other point George makes, that for newer people trying to catch up, it will most likely take significantly longer to accumulate a similar number of points to older members, because the number of competitions every year has started rapidly decreasing. Here's a graph that illustrates this, with competition data taken from here.

rj42RA2.png

Just to put some numbers on this, if you participated in 50% of comps from 2013 - 2018 (making a simplifying assumption that all comps give the exact same amount of points), and if there were only 45 comps per year for the forseeable future, it would take just over 12 years for the new member to catch up at the same participation rate, and only if you stopped participating in any comps. What kind of bullshit is that?

And even if we dismiss the fact that it might take significantly longer for new members to be on an equal footing with older members, if older members continue to participate in new competitions, then there's the hypothetical scenario where an older member will always have more competition points, regardless of how much time a new member puts in. The fact that is possible with unlimited career comp points is a tremendous issue.

I don't see why we wouldn't want to improve the system to promote equality for all members going into the future, rather than advancing the interests of older members at the expense of new members.

Interesting chart :)

I will state upfront that bullshit or not ( better avoid this kind of wording ), there is not ONE single thing in real life, for which we have fought and earned the relevant value

( either in the form of work promotion, money reward - work raise, achievements that are filed in our personal portfolio and follow us for life ) that someone will wake up one day

and simply take it from anyone or us, with the excuse that new members ( employees in a business environment ) must have a better chance to accelerate climbing the ladder

in order to catch up with older ones.

It is called hierarchy and it applies to any form of effort and mass participation.

In simple words ?

Are you better than me ( literally speaking ) ?

Come and get it. But I will not accept the fact that an ultra fast "elevator" will destroy the efforts of those that climbed the stairs, step by step, for years.

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2 hours ago, Bones said:

Thing is the number of comps held is up to the staff, they can if they want increase the number of comps held if they want.

I know things have changed in the way of less comps in recent times but that in itself as all other things are could well be changed in the other direction too.

You do make a good point about how comp points were dropping off but that could be subject to change too if the staff decides to do so.

As for catching up it's no different than it was for us when we started off, we too were behind the rest when we started but with time we managed to catch up. Also look at the number of new guys that stuck with it and climbed the rankings in short order, a big part of it is up to the bencher. There are also guys who have half the time if that much in it I have that's ranked above me, that in itself proves it's not solely a matter of time being involved, it's at least in part the commitment and effort given by the bencher.

I don't see the fairness in discounting what the older guys have done, all of us still had to put in the same effort and expense to do it and that shoudn't change for anyone if it's to be done equally across the board, what one earns is theirs.

The new guys can participate in comps in the same way we have, it's all up to them to either do so or not. No amount of accomidation can change that if they aren't willing to work for what they get, same as we've had to do all along.

Speaking of the number of comps held, the staff could look back and see how those were done and possibly use it for an idea or template for planning future comps if they want, it's certainly possible to do.

That is true, there could be more or less comps, that is entirely up to the staff.

I haven't been on here as long as yourself or a number of others in this thread but I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from you, the comp points never really counted before and if they did I don't think it was accumulated throughout your entire time on HWBOT (please someone correct me if I'm wrong).

The way I see it is these are your BEST performances in competitions, if we wanted everything we've ever done to count then we'd have unlimited hardware and global points as well.
Personally don't think they should be made to be unlimited top 10 or 20 max, and I also think the seasonal comps should be lowered to 5 max as well.

I don't think that is making it too easy for newcomers at all, they'll still have to work hard to move up the spots, opening up the amount of hardware and globals that count towards your total will make it harder for them as well.

As before it doesn't seem to me that anyone is trying to take away or discount how long people have been active, Just trying to bring a solution forward that works best for everyone :)

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