zeropluszero Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) LEAGUE CHANGES ok good. now it cant be missed. Edited February 10, 2020 by zeropluszero 1 3 Quote
Crew Leeghoofd Posted February 10, 2020 Author Crew Posted February 10, 2020 League changes into? Elite (spnsored) vs the rest? Elite, & Extreme vs the rest? No more leagues? I think if we are gonna do league changes we need a vast majority in favor off Plus at least 200+ people that cast their vote (mostly would hear the voices of the biggest crowd aka the enthusiasts) Quote
yosarianilives Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Leeghoofd said: League changes into? Elite (spnsored) vs the rest? No more leagues? These are the two I'm in favor of, I'd be happy either way Edited February 10, 2020 by yosarianilives Quote
keeph8n Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 I mean its not Elite vs everyone else. Its elite vs elite and then the rest of the leagues are the same. You are facing against your same type. If you want to move it to Sponsored vs not sponsored you are going to have those who aren't sponsored trying to compete water/chiller/SS vs LN2. Changing the league structure could be welcome depending on how it was done and implemented. It realistically depends on what the people want. Elite is already separated and vs ourselves. I don't get what people want when they say Elite vs everyone else. I'd like to see Rookie Rumbles and Novice Nimbles make a comeback. They disappeared right before I came on board and I always heard really good things about them and how people enjoyed them. Not sure if this is even feasible, but mass uploads would be pretty cool imo. Get done with your session and upload 10-15 scores at once vs doing each one individually. 1 Quote
Members GeorgeStorm Posted February 10, 2020 Members Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) Elite vs everyone else means two leagues, elite, and everyone else. Instead of elite vs extreme vs apprentice etc. At least that's what I assume. Edited February 10, 2020 by GeorgeStorm 2 Quote
ObscureParadox Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Leauges is always a sensitive issue. We have the current league system because people were complaining that those using phase didn't want to be compared against those using LN2 etc. No matter what you do 50% of the people will be annoyed. 4 Quote
yosarianilives Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 33 minutes ago, keeph8n said: Not sure if this is even feasible, but mass uploads would be pretty cool imo. Get done with your session and upload 10-15 scores at once vs doing each one individually. Definitely would love to see this, I think with datafile benches it may be technically possible, others idk. Quote
bigblock990 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 First off, this is amazing news! I'm really excited to see what happens with active owners/management. I hope some serious time is spent bugfixing before any sweeping changes are made In regards to leagues my opinion remains the same as all the previous times this has been discussed. Three leagues: Elite (ES/sponsored), Everyone else (all cooling types), Rookie (3-6mo time limit). 5 Quote
_mat_ Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 4 hours ago, yosarianilives said: Definitely would love to see this, I think with datafile benches it may be technically possible, others idk. BenchMate already has it if you submit online from within the client. If you bench offline, just copy the result folder to another BM install on your normal PC (json and hwbot files at least). Select all results in the result list and submit. Or use BenchMate on a USB stick and just plug it into your PC after the session. Quote
Crew Don_Dan Posted February 10, 2020 Crew Posted February 10, 2020 Thanks for opening the thread, Albrecht. First priority should be fixing all the bugs and adding Port Royal to the benchmark list. Then we should ask the community about their vote regarding the current benchmark list and the changes laid out in my thread. My take on some of the topics discussed in this thread and also on Discord: Please don't touch the current league system. There will always be dispute about this topic and I'm convinced we need to keep the leagues stable for a while. There should be no different algorithm to determine the total points of Elite league members compared to the other leagues. Regarding the cutoff percentage, I don't really care. I liked the change to the current system, because it made the system much more responsive, but if it can be changed without the server performance taking a dive, it's fine. Regarding competition points in the career ranking, I don't really care, however some competitions were awarded a bizarre amount of points in the past, so that should be looked at again. One more thing, I'm afraid the rankings of competitions aren't frozen, so if a member deletes his scores or even his account and he had scores ranked in, say, the Country Cup, his country might lose a rank and everyone else loses points in their career ranking. That needs to be checked before making any changes. 1 Quote
zeropluszero Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 13 hours ago, Leeghoofd said: League changes into? Elite (spnsored) vs the rest? Elite, & Extreme vs the rest? No more leagues? I think if we are gonna do league changes we need a vast majority in favor off Plus at least 200+ people that cast their vote (mostly would hear the voices of the biggest crowd aka the enthusiasts) No more leagues? Stop talking dirty. I'm fine with a vote. 1 Quote
Mr.Scott Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Don_Dan said: Please don't touch the current league system. There will always be dispute about this topic and I'm convinced we need to keep the leagues stable for a while. But they are not stable, and will never be until you can prove positive the cooling method used. League segregation by cooling method is bullshit. There are more exploiters out there than you think. 4 Quote
MaddMutt Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mr.Scott said: But they are not stable, and will never be until you can prove positive the cooling method used. League segregation by cooling method is bullshit. There are more exploiters out there than you think. I agree but have to toss in the odd ball. A) I live in _________ that is 32c (~90f) to 40c (104f) in summer so I use a ice chest with my Rads = Water Chilled/Cold. Max cooling ~ 0c (32f) B) I own a Water Chiller (Hailea HC-500) with a max (un-modded) of 4c (~40f) = Water Chilled/Cold. Max cooling ~ 4c (32f) C) I live in __________ that is -20c (-4f) to -30c+ (-22f+) in the winter so I place my Rads in Window = Water Chilled/Cold. Max cooling ~ -15c (5f) / Outside = Water Chilled/Cold. Max cooling ~ 30c+ (-22f+). D) A DIY Water Chiller (On Internet by Tin_EE - Sub_Zero Version) can hit ~ -30c+ (-22f+) IF properly setup = Water Chilled/Cold. Max cooling ~ 30c+ (-22f+) ^ In the above scenario, we are talking of up to a -30c (-22f) difference between setups The C & D options are on the borderline of a Single Stage Phase Change system. <- This is IIRC a SS that can hit -35c (-31f) @ the CPU IHS. I understand that the Rad/Water Block will not be 100% c/f temp @ the CPU IHS but it's something to think about ? Thank You P.S. If in North America you may remember Hee Haw -> If it wasn't (wern't) for BAD LUCK, I have NO LUCK at all (a tall) ? Haa Haa Hee Hee Quote
Mr.Scott Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) Irrelevant if you go to a 2 or 3 league scheme. No loopholes. End of arguments..........and need of proof. Edited February 11, 2020 by Mr.Scott 2 1 Quote
zeropluszero Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr.Scott said: Irrelevant if you go to a 2 or 3 league scheme. No loopholes. End of arguments..........and need of proof. Lets do this. 2 Quote
jab383 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 As predicted, the no-league crusaders are out in force. They're entitled to their opinion and to express them. Personally, I agree with Don Dan - we should keep the leagues. This speaks to the need for a vote with wide participation. Note that one of the features of Benchmate is monitoring CPU temperature during the benchmark run. Perhaps temperature achieved - above/below 0C - could be used to place members in the proper league? Quote
Members GeorgeStorm Posted February 11, 2020 Members Posted February 11, 2020 36 minutes ago, jab383 said: As predicted, the no-league crusaders are out in force. They're entitled to their opinion and to express them. Personally, I agree with Don Dan - we should keep the leagues. This speaks to the need for a vote with wide participation. Note that one of the features of Benchmate is monitoring CPU temperature during the benchmark run. Perhaps temperature achieved - above/below 0C - could be used to place members in the proper league? Only works with a limited subset of hw/os/benches etc so useful but not a complete solution it feels like. To those who really like the leagues, can I ask why? Like having the #3 in enthusiast on your profile? Quote
keeph8n Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Yeah unfortunately Benchmate doesn't cover all benches so it wouldn't work for temperature monitoring. Even if something like that was implemented, people would just bench the non Benchmate benches and be done with it if they wanted to get around it. As it was proposed to me in the Discord, Elite/Everyone Else/Rookies(3mo-6mo timeframe) sounds good especially if the algorithm is changed to reflect points past 75%. Those lower ranked will get points still, and if they want more points they can move up in cooling solution. 1 Quote
yosarianilives Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) Would be interested to see the spread of people for and against leagues vs their current league. Think we'll find most ln2 people don't want cooling based leagues and most people who want cooling leagues are on ambient or "ambient". Edited February 11, 2020 by yosarianilives Quote
Bruno Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, GeorgeStorm said: To those who really like the leagues, can I ask why? Like having the #3 in enthusiast on your profile? Tottaly agree! No reason to be separated into leagues. You can filter results by cooling method, so if you wanna check you are the best with one method, you just use the filters, no need to be in whatever league. 1 Quote
keeph8n Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, yosarianilives said: Would be interested to see the spread of people for and against leagues vs their current league. Think we'll find most ln2 people don't want cooling based leagues and most people who want cooling leagues are on ambient or "ambient". Quote
Alex@ro Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 I think you are overreacting. Changes like this should be done when you have a functional platform. There are tons of bugs and features that don't work as intended, everything is messed up, it will take a while untile new programmers fix the crap that Frederik did and you guys are debating what sort of league system is best. 4 Quote
Members GeorgeStorm Posted February 11, 2020 Members Posted February 11, 2020 Nah all about making the big changes in one go, instead of having lots of complaints as each change comes in, get them all out of the way 2 Quote
MaddMutt Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, keeph8n said: Yeah unfortunately Benchmate doesn't cover all benches so it wouldn't work for temperature monitoring. Even if something like that was implemented, people would just bench the non Benchmate benches and be done with it if they wanted to get around it. As it was proposed to me in the Discord, Elite/Everyone Else/Rookies(3mo-6mo timeframe) sounds good especially if the algorithm is changed to reflect points past 75%. Those lower ranked will get points still, and if they want more points they can move up in cooling solution. I have to agree on the 1st part sort-of. We are currently undergoing a MAJOR shift in the CPU/MB camp - You simply state --- ALL Processors/MB after - will be run on Win 10/BM submissions only ? The New Intel " Socket 1200__MB z470/90 " will not be backwards compatible with Win 7 <- The last " HWBot Certified " MS OS. Unless there is a BIOS Hack <- Instant Banning. The New AMD Zen 3 has a work-around but will not continue after this year. AMD's "Zen 4__MB x670/90 will not be backwards compatible with Win 7 either. ^ IIRC these are projected to be released this year 2020!!! Thus WE START NOW laying the ground work/foundation for the HWBot League (or whatever) that will be HERE 3yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs from ________ <- ADD DATE -> I'm a small voice BUT it should still count -> That is what a Democratic/Republic administration allows <- OR -> You can have a Dictatorship administration where 5-10 Members control everything. That last option would leave this a very lonely place. We NEED to support Both Side Right NOW - OLD School (Win 7 and <) - NEW School (Win 10 and >). If not -- WE (I hope I'm still here) will have the SAME problems 5 years from now that we are complaining about in the Forums now. *** What we already have going for US already (All Current Members) is a great Benching Software (Is it 100% foolproof - NO!! Because you will never stop that .1% that has to WIN/Be First) AND also -- Splave (ELite) -- has already backed as a Future Requirement in all submissions. *** OCN (I hope I'm allowed to post this) has already made it a Requirement to even compete in their Freezer Burn competition -> https://www.overclock.net/forum/410-benchmarking-competitions/1738924-freezer-burn-2019-round-3-a.html. On the 2nd part I think the Basic Rookie is 3mo and the you have the Advanced Rookie > 1yr. This is also subjected to points (a rookie is not going to have an assortment of equipment) that = ____ points for Beginner and Advanced. Somewhere in that MIX is the Seasoned Bencher that plays with SS/Dice BUT 90% of submissions is with Water. He may BUT will only have less than (5~15 ??)____ submissions using LN2. I know that was a heated debate on that subject....⚠️ Who is classified as an Elite ??? They get ES samples ?? Use LN2 for more than 25~30 submissions in a yr ?? Total Points Earned through 5, 10 - 20 years of submissions ??? You have the TOP 5% that will always want to be listed in the TOP 15 or TOP % of ________ Bench ( This way ______ sends them _______ for free ? ) You have the Bottom 5% that are trying this out and will either stick around or leave. This is fun/enjoy doing this or their those people are weird....?♂️ Then you have the 80% that have stuck around for YEARS and really enjoy trying to better their score (from last week(s)/month(s)/year(s)) or having a friendly comp now and again ( They compete EVEN though they know they will not WIN <- I know, I know some people are like that ?♂️ ) I Know my % does not = 100% --- You have to account for the 5% THAT -> You have pissed off and have left/quit ---- 2% THAT have been Banned (permanently ??) ---- and the 3% that have previously left/quit BUT have decided to come back after (week(s)/month(s)/year(s)) ⏲️ time away. Thank You for allowing me to be hear ☮️ ? Edited February 11, 2020 by MaddMutt 1 Quote
keeph8n Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Windows 7 and XP compatibility will probably be around for a bit I would think? 1 2 Quote
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