Wizerty Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 ... pathetic behavior. Sometime you find a tweak and you are not 100% sure if it's legit or not, but here it obvious. First of all we need to find be 100% sure to find a way to know if a result use this cheat or not. Ban an innocent is the worst thing that could happen. Then when you are 100% sure, make a public list of cheater and...SHAME SHAME SHAME , then BAN HAMMER
Alan_Alberino Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Great finding Splave... Guy banned, but what to do with benchs? There are at least 3 bugged benchs (x265 1080p, x265 4k, and hwbot prime) giving globals... Maybe it's notticeable on top scores but what happens with scores that don't appear on front page? Like watercooled tweaked runs that maybe no one sees?
superpatodonaldo Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) More broken benches. x264 seemed pretty cool as well. But yeah, probably should disable points and ban blantant cheaters. without cheat various benchmarks seem cool well done @Splave Edited August 23, 2017 by superpatodonaldo
Rauf Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Well, the time is 2s slower than on second place but result is higher, on splaves results it is the opposite, faster time= higher score like in the rankings.On heaven the results I checked have extremely low minimum fps but extreme high maximum fps compared to other results, this made me wonder if a in benchmark time boost accelerating fps like a fast forward might be problem, but it can have lots of reasons No, it's the same. Don't look at the 2xoverkill, as it can't be compared time wise with single run. Proper run, no overkill mode, for splave is 10 seconds. Cheated run is 14 seconds, but score is higher. Same principle as seen for the 6700K score.
Administrators websmile Posted August 23, 2017 Administrators Posted August 23, 2017 Yep, I forgot that he did not use overkill mode.
mus1mus Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 So what's the conclusion on HWBOT X265? Render time as basis? I saw a score once that has been bugging me. Same render time but more than 2 fps faster at 4K. With 200 MHz lower reported clock too.
bigblock990 Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Great detective work Splave! Hopefully x265 can be fixed so points can be re enabled. Hwbp....meh ha ha
Rauf Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 I tried on Kaby-X. Change time cheat works for this platform also. Score is increased, but "elapsed time" stays the same. Which means the score will have an unproportional long elapsed time... Using pause button does nothing for efficiency/unrealistic score, but inceases "elapsed time" by an amount which seems to correspond to how long you have paused benchmark. It can of course be used to run higher clocks, but where does the efficiency come from?
Crew gavbon Posted August 23, 2017 Crew Posted August 23, 2017 Banning him so quickly is a little disturbing, especially since some of the people crying were blatantly modifying Cinebench to their own gain...
rtsurfer Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 ^^^ This. While I do not condone cheating, seems like part of $@39@ crime was cheating while not being Elite. Someone of the people slinging mud at him have skeletons of their own in the closet, they just seem to be able to walk away scot free. 1
havli Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 I tried on Kaby-X. Change time cheat works for this platform also. Score is increased, but "elapsed time" stays the same. Which means the score will have an unproportional long elapsed time... Using pause button does nothing for efficiency/unrealistic score, but inceases "elapsed time" by an amount which seems to correspond to how long you have paused benchmark. It can of course be used to run higher clocks, but where does the efficiency come from? Thank you for the testing (I'm all day at work today, so I don't have access to the source code of x265 bench) So far it seems the fix could be rather simple - to use the same kind of time measurement for score as the one which indicates "elapsed time". This value is already inside the benchmark and most likely with precision good enough to calculate the score (the elapsed time is truncated to 1s precision for display purposes). Possibly there are other ways, which I will also consider, of course everything will be tested using at least windows 7/8/10 and several hardware platforms to make sure it works. Obviously using the x265 encoder's internal time (and thus) fps measuring function wasn't a good choice. Using this alternative method of time measuring would however kill the purpose of pause button... as it would make the score much lower. Btw - overkill results should be always slower than regular single instance run depending on the overkill mode. For example if 100 fps @ regular takes 20s, then 100 fps @ 2x overkill would be ~40s, 100 fps @ 3x overkill = ~60s... etc.
mickulty Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Banning him so quickly is a little disturbing, especially since some of the people crying were blatantly modifying Cinebench to their own gain... As someone who didn't really follow the cinebench stuff - or any other past drama... *popcorn* (I certainly agree with the principles that modifying benchmark files and modifying windows clock are both equally obviously cheating, and that "respected" users shouldn't be given any more tolerance than anyone else - but wouldn't wish to comment on how those principles may or may not apply nor on who to)
Massman Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Banning him so quickly is a little disturbing, especially since some of the people crying were blatantly modifying Cinebench to their own gain... It's a temporary suspension till we get to the bottom of this. With Cinebench everything was pretty much clear from the start. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Splave Posted August 23, 2017 Author Posted August 23, 2017 Great find splavor, no sarcasm really mean it.But from my point of view you should also try running the benchmarks from console since they are java based. You can even pause them (asus has an onboard button for this). By pausing you can bench around 30-50mhz more depenting on cpu and bench. Pause does not work on hwbotprime for some reason but does work on x265.The overall score ia not affected but you can run higher freq since the benchmark is not all one huge load.the only thing affected is the timer but the score from the valitidy point of view is fine in my opinion.It is the first time i wish i was not on vacation to prove myself but this will happen trust me. I think it is good that we as overclockers try and find exploits of benchmarks but we should not be so thirsty of drama.Of course all of my results are open for scrutinizing,so you are free to do that,just do not jump in conclusions... Sorry but adding 30-50mhz to no overkill mode will have you spinning your wheels at a lower score than 150mhz less with overkill. Also knowingly affecting the time measurement is in the rules. In this response it still doesnt explain how such a high score is achieved. If I ran 6ghz no overkill the score would be less than 5.8 on a legit run.
barbonenet Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Wtf guys, i just got a cpu(4670k) for hwbotprime for the teamcup..... Is it still allowed to cheat for the teamcup???? Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk
Rauf Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 One way to quickly verify if it's cheat or tweak would be to check the 7900X score in x265. As far as I recall it was done on MSI mb, no? No pause switch on MSI... If elapsed time is wrong, it must be cheat. The scores have been pulled so I can't check myself.
Strong Island Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 It's a temporary suspension till we get to the bottom of this. With Cinebench everything was pretty much clear from the start. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk There was a lot of newer type people that didnt know if this was ok and if nobody tells you it's ok and is hiding it then I think it is similar. But I guess since there was a lot of people doing it, people think it's not as bad but it's still frustrating for people trying to learn how things work around here. I guess this cheat falls under tricking the benchmark to believe it finished faster or altering the time it takes to complete, which makes this a a definite violation of the rules, but man tweaks/cheats can be really tough to determine for people that arent completely familiar with software tweaking. Makes things really frustrating to know most people straddle the line very close and find the strangest tweaks that I wouldnt even know to try, or even know that they were ok to try.
Gunslinger Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Disallowed tweaks/cheats: Altering benchmark files or the rendering. Any software or human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program, tricking it to believe it ran faster. So blatantly against the current rules of every benchmark...absolutely no excuse should be accepted. 1 month ban would be a joke, 1 year minimum...
mus1mus Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 What would've happened if he was an Elite tho? For smaller guys, it's easy to call it a cheat. But for the BIG Names, aren't we calling them TWEAKS?
Dancop Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Sure let's blame elite guys for being rule breakers in general... This is a clearly specified rule, you really think the league status changes any rule for us? Gesendet von meinem ONEPLUS A5000 mit Tapatalk
Gunslinger Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 What would've happened if he was an Elite tho? For smaller guys, it's easy to call it a cheat. But for the BIG Names, aren't we calling them TWEAKS? Any software or human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program, tricking it to believe it ran faster. Changing the OS clock during a benchmark run is the very definition of "human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program" specifically for the intent of "tricking it to believe it ran faster" Doesn't matter what league the user is in, doesn't matter what rank the user holds. There is no excuse for this action that is acceptable. As soon as this vulnerability was discovered it should have been reported to HWBot so that it could be addressed instead of exploited for personal gain. 1
rtsurfer Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Calling for 1 year ban here instead of a month, but there was not a single consequence for the Cinebench debacle IIRC. Seems fair?? Also some people (know of atleast 1 instance) submitted scores with the modified cinebench files after the whole thing was over & there scores were deleted by the mods, who now knew what to look for. But the person who submitted the scores wasn't banned. Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
mus1mus Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 Any software or human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program, tricking it to believe it ran faster. Changing the OS clock during a benchmark run is the very definition of "human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program" specifically for the intent of "tricking it to believe it ran faster" Doesn't matter what league the user is in, doesn't matter what rank the user holds. There is no excuse for this action that is acceptable. As soon as this vulnerability was discovered it should have been reported to HWBot so that it could be addressed instead of exploited for personal gain. That is just to generalize things up. If we go back to where this transpired, I think you will agree with the idea that BIG NAMES get away with these crap more often than the smaller guys.
Members GeorgeStorm Posted August 23, 2017 Members Posted August 23, 2017 Calling for 1 year ban here instead of a month, but there was not a single consequence for the Cinebench debacle IIRC. Seems fair?? Also some people (know of atleast 1 instance) submitted scores with the modified cinebench files after the whole thing was over & there scores were deleted by the mods, who now knew what to look for. But the person who submitted the scores wasn't banned. Start naming names
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